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Predestination: An infallible argument?


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7 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I realize that a bullet isn't conscious. It was meant as a metaphor. God is so powerful and wise that, even though we're the most complex organisms in existence, to him we are as simple as machines to an engineer. He "points us" and "pulls the trigger" by creating us, sending us on the path he decided

That is a false equivalent. You can't dismiss the central element by saying "it's as if".

 

7 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

So you don't believe God created you atom by atom? That he has no control over how you turned out? That would make God a short-sighted Anarchist who doesn't care about his creation at all. A "Big kid with a Magnifying glass" so to speak. Which does NOT line up with the Bible or reality as we know it.

It's not God doesn't have the power. Having the power to do something and doing it are two separate matters.

And as I've explained before I believe God created the universe set up for the best possible outcome. This outcome simply happened to include the need for the creation to have the freedom of choice.

 

9 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

The "Socioeconomic Environment" is what I meant by "Nurture." And as we've already established, God controls the Nature. So unless there's some mysterious 3rd element to our Being then that means God has set us on our fixed paths from which we are powerless to stray.

Sure, external factors control Nurture and you don't get to choose your nature. However, and I'll repeat this one last time, you don't need to choose your nature. In fact that would make no sense at all. Your nature is who you are. So long as who you are is making the decisions, you are making the decisions therefore you have free will. 

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7 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

It's not God doesn't have the power. Having the power to do something and doing it are two separate matters.

And as I've explained before I believe God created the universe set up for the best possible outcome. This outcome simply happened to include the need for the creation to have the freedom of choice.

You claim this universe is the "best possible outcome" simply because it's the one you find yourself in. Which is circular reasoning. You say this is the best universe because it exists and you say that God created it this way because this was the best possible universe. It's a cyclical argument that doesn't hold up when put under the microscope. Wouldn't a universe with a little less rape, a little less murder, a little less malevolence, be "better" than the one we live in? Is that not the basis for every good deed or act of charity or stance against injustice? Otherwise you cannot justify trying to make the world a better place for those around you because to do so would be to change God's "perfect" design.

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28 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

You claim this universe is the "best possible outcome" simply because it's the one you find yourself in. Which is circular reasoning. You say this is the best universe because it exists and you say that God created it this way because this was the best possible universe. It's a cyclical argument that doesn't hold up when put under the microscope. Wouldn't a universe with a little less rape, a little less murder, a little less malevolence, be "better" than the one we live in? Is that not the basis for every good deed or act of charity or stance against injustice? Otherwise you cannot justify trying to make the world a better place for those around you because to do so would be to change God's "perfect" design.

I believe in God being omnibenevolent. My claim to that is one which is quite honestly rather astray from the topic of this thread and a rabbit hole I'd rather not persue in this case. 

That said, that believe in an omnibnevolent God was the main cause of me believing this is the best outcome universe. That said, as explained, this is the best outcome in that creation has the choice to follow or not God's plan. Yes, the world would be better with less rape and less violence and etc... But to strip that away from people's ability to choose, tot ake people's free will away would be worse than allowing that. That's what I believe anyways.

You are free to disagree with me there, but this is not a circular argument. That said, it is part of the reason why I believe we have free will, so if you find the idea so unnaceptable we can't progress in this discussion

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1 hour ago, Infantwish said:

That said, that believe in an omnibnevolent God was the main cause of me believing this is the best outcome universe. That said, as explained, this is the best outcome in that creation has the choice to follow or not God's plan. Yes, the world would be better with less rape and less violence and etc... But to strip that away from people's ability to choose, tot ake people's free will away would be worse than allowing that. That's what I believe anyways.

You are free to disagree with me there, but this is not a circular argument. That said, it is part of the reason why I believe we have free will, so if you find the idea so unnaceptable we can't progress in this discussion

I actually agree that yours is a very wise and well-informed worldview. It would be foolish and arrogant of me to believe that I somehow know what's "better" for the world than God does.

I would also like to reiterate that, even if one does believe we have no freewill, you still need to treat the world as if we do. We still need to act as if our choices matter.

Part of the reason I start this thread is because I don't want to believe that freewill is an illusion. I was looking for someone to poke holes in my theory by pointing out the flaws in the 5 axioms I established. But so far not a single person has even tried. They usually just completely ignore it and spout their beliefs about Predestination vs. Freewill. Which only further solidifies the sinking feeling I have that my theory, terrible and heartbreaking as it may seem, may actually be right and THAT'S why nobody is willing to take the time to examine it; they just can't bring themselves close enough to accept the possibility. :(

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2 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I actually agree that yours is a very wise and well-informed worldview. It would be foolish and arrogant of me to believe that I somehow know what's "better" for the world than God does.

I would also like to reiterate that, even if one does believe we have no freewill, you still need to treat the world as if we do. We still need to act as if our choices matter.

Part of the reason I start this thread is because I don't want to believe that freewill is an illusion. I was looking for someone to poke holes in my theory by pointing out the flaws in the 5 axioms I established. But so far not a single person has even tried. They usually just completely ignore it and spout their beliefs about Predestination vs. Freewill. Which only further solidifies the sinking feeling I have that my theory, terrible and heartbreaking as it may seem, may actually be right and THAT'S why nobody is willing to take the time to examine it; they just can't bring themselves close enough to accept the possibility. :(

Allow me for a moment, then, to explain a problem from a different view. Take the following all argument.

Premise 1: All ducks are purple.

Premise 2: That thing is a duck.

Conclusion: Therefore that thing is purple. 

 

As you can see if we assume the two premises to be true, then the conclusion becomes true as well. That said, common sense dictates that the first premise is NOT true.

 

The problem here is that your axioms , if far more reasonable, very similar to those premises. Yes, if we accept your axioms exactly as they are, then your conclusion is true. However, what I at least and I imagine many others here have tried to do was show how our view accepts similar concepts that uphold our faith that do NOT fall into the traps of your axioms. 

 

Our response to your request is "double check the axioms, see whether they are true and where they really necessarily lead".

 

Ultimately though, the only person who can change your mind is you. Even if I was the best philosopher in history (and by God I'm not) and I argued here for a year, ultimately only your own challenge of your own preconceived ideas can change your mind. I was once told, and I pass it onto you: "It is not a sin to have doubts, it is a sin not to try to answer those doubts"

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14 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

Ultimately though, the only person who can change your mind is you. Even if I was the best philosopher in history (and by God I'm not) and I argued here for a year, ultimately only your own challenge of your own preconceived ideas can change your mind. I was once told, and I pass it onto you: "It is not a sin to have doubts, it is a sin not to try to answer those doubts"

am trying to answer those doubts! That's why I started this thread in the first place! I've thought about it a LOT. And try as I might, I just can't find a logical flaw with the arguments I've made EVEN THOUGH my heart tells me they can't possibly be true! So I reached out to the only people I think I could trust to give me answers (i.e. total strangers) and yet none of them have even TRIED to answer my questions in a logical format.

I was very hesitant to start this thread, since it seems trying to argue about religion on the Internet is fruitless at best and in some cases can even be harmful when it gets out of control.

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On 5/6/2018 at 9:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:
  • The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

  • If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

  • Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being.

  • And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

  • Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

Lemme put it this way then: your mistake is point 3

God does not control the nature of our being. Neither do we. God chooses not to control it.

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1 hour ago, Infantwish said:

Lemme put it this way then: your mistake is point 3

God does not control the nature of our being. Neither do we. God chooses not to control it.

First of all: Thank you for finally addressing my argument directly. :)

Secondly: I think you misunderstood what I meant. When I said he controls our "Nature" I merely meant that he created us. As in Nature vs Nurture. Of course God doesn't play Puppet Master with our Wills. But you do believe that God created you just the way you are, for this time and place, in this reality, correct?

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19 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

But you do believe that God created you just the way you are, for this time and place, in this reality, correct?

Do clarify what you mean by that

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17 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

Do clarify what you mean by that

Gladly. :)

to put it in Video Game terms, your "Soul" is made up of certain stats & attributes that make you different than every other person that has ever lived. Just like the Character Creation at the beginning of most RPGs, God "built" you from scratch when you came into this world, deciding what Attributes you'd be born with. Even if you do argue that we have Freewill, we can at least agree that God decides your "Starting Equipment" so to speak, correct?

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5 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

Gladly. :)

to put it in Video Game terms, your "Soul" is made up of certain stats & attributes that make you different than every other person that has ever lived. Just like the Character Creation at the beginning of most RPGs, God "built" you from scratch when you came into this world, deciding what Attributes you'd be born with. Even if you do argue that we have Freewill, we can at least agree that God decides your "Starting Equipment" so to speak, correct?

I see. Yes, I suppose that's true. That said, taking your metaphor there (or is it an analogy?  I sometimes confuse the two) even if God chooses your traits and all of your your equipment, what you do with those is still up to you.

Or perhaps better put: What a machine, for having no will of it's own, needs an entire domino of cause and effect to do you by your own will., in one step. 

Even if God choose every little piece of you that still does not make you any less free. Because ultimately are only not free if you lack choice and you only choice if you are not making the decision by your will, a will may be set in a given way.

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6 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

see. Yes, I suppose that's true. That said, taking your metaphor there (or is it an analogy?  I sometimes confuse the two) even if God chooses your traits and all of your your equipment, what you do with those is still up to you.

I know it seems that way, but according to my 5 axioms, specifically 2 & 3 (the latter of which you have already agreed to) that simply isn't the case. We are shackled to whatever plan God has for us, and to "fight against it" would only lead to the outcome God had truly intended for you.

If I put you in a room with 2 doors, and I know everything about you, I know just what to say to you to get you to pick the door on the left. You may think you chose that door, but in actuality I chose it for you.

In this universe I'm proposing that is the way God operates. He gives you the "illusion" of choice, but really it's just a tool to achieve his own ends.

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14 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

3 (the latter of which you have already agreed to)

First , no I did not. I agreed God created your part, to a certain extent, but not that he exerts control over it.

 

22 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

If I put you in a room with 2 doors, and I know everything about you, I know just what to say to you to get you to pick the door on the left. You may think you chose that door, but in actuality I chose it for you.

This metaphor implies one thing that is contradicted by any belief in God proposed by an organized religion or even anyone opposing it: the idea that God is constantly attempting to interfere with the human condition and decisions OR that he choose to pick the exact right moments to change them. 

This is innacurate, at least, again, if you go from the set of beliefs I have. However, in this case, I do recognize those beliefs already imply a God that gives free will, however, you own point there already implies a God that doesn't.

What this means is that what you are trying to convince me with and what I am trying to convince you with, ultimately depend on the view you start from.

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7 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

What this means is that what you are trying to convince me with and what I am trying to convince you with, ultimately depend on the view you start from.

You know, I do believe you're right. We both think we're talking about the same thing, yet we're starting from completely irreconcilable preconceptions about reality itself. We could potentially argue back and forth till doomsday and still not have a clue what the other is saying.

So, umm... where do we go now?

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5 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

You know, I do believe you're right. We both think we're talking about the same thing, yet we're starting from completely irreconcilable preconceptions about reality itself. We could potentially argue back and forth till doomsday and still not have a clue what the other is saying.

So, umm... where do we go now?

Well, like at the end of any civil argument that can't reach a full conclusion we agree to disagree, congratulate each other on a debate well-discussed and move on wishing one another good luck in finding ways to improve our lives I suppose :)

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3 minutes ago, Infantwish said:

Well, like at the end of any civil argument that can't reach a full conclusion we agree to disagree, congratulate each other on a debate well-discussed and move on wishing one another good luck in finding ways to improve our lives I suppose :)

I concur, my good sir. Thank you for a rousing discussion. If nothing else it felt good to exercise my intellectual and philosophical muscles. I'm glad to see we really can debate religion on the Internet, come to completely opposing conclusion, and still come out as friends. :)

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4 minutes ago, Wannatripbaby said:

I concur, my good sir. Thank you for a rousing discussion. If nothing else it felt good to exercise my intellectual and philosophical muscles. I'm glad to see we really can debate religion on the Internet, come to completely opposing conclusion, and still come out as friends. :)

But of course. One just needs to find others who seek the truth as well :)

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  • 4 weeks later...

Trying to understand God is difficult and easy all at once. Getting to know Him is easy and is a matter of faith and decision. UNderstanding Him however is a life-long journey where you learn a lot, but never all or even remotely like it.

There is no better journey than the discovery of God.

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I heartily disagree. The more I know God the more I see that nauseates me. God is not benevolent; rather he is non-caring unless he decides to do something for you which he usually doesn't. The evidence of this is clear, one only needs to consider those faithful whose earnest prayers went unanswered. To blow that off by responding that we don't know why God does what he does is to ignore the elephant in the room. If God does what he does anyway, then there's no sense in asking him to change anything because he won't! To think that your prayers have been answered is to become deluded by letting your emotions surpass your logic and reasoning. 

An omnipotent God does whatever he does and you have no input in the matter unless he wants that from you. In predestination that has already been set and decided. Therefore prayer is useless- the same outcome will happen with or without it. Prayer only gives hope, and when you see that hope is only an emotional prop you may change your prayers significantly. I know I have, and I see no differences happening. Things either make sense and are explainable or they aren't. To see the results also shows the path and situations which caused them. In seeing that, you find the truth and understand what has happened and why, and with that you can also see what is likely to happen thereafter. When those things do happen your belief in predestination without free will becomes manifest and provable. 

If predestination is true, then free will cannot be true along with it- the two are opposites. And if your Bible is so clearly wrong in this regard then what parts of it can be believed at all?  To those like me who seek truth instead of comfort and justification, your beliefs can become stronger in knowing that what you thought was true isn't if you let that motivate you to learn more about the errata and how it got in there. Real understanding only comes with the deepest of knowledge possible, and that can be found if you're willing to look for it. Just beware that this knowledge can also destroy you when you discover how wrong you were unless you are willing to change your beliefs to fit the facts. It's a rock-strewn path which leaves scars but in the end you come out better knowing that you are just here along for the ride, and not in control of anything at all. Just take it all in stride and remember who it is that caused it all, good and bad together.

Bettypooh

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/6/2018 at 4:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

The human mind or consciousness or “Soul.” That is, the part of you that makes you an individual, is made up of 2 parts: Nature & Nurture.

  1. If I knew EVERYTHING about you (as God does) I could predict how you would react to ANY situation with 100% accuracy.

  2. Since God created the universe he controls the Nature aspect of our being.

  3. And since he knows everything about you, and as we established he controls Nature, it also means by extension that he controls how we were Nurtured.

  4. Since God controls our Nature & Nurture it means we do not have free will, as most people believe it functions. Our “Souls” are more akin to programming. We will act exactly as God programmed us to.

Sorry for being so late to the party, but just found it! Here are some things to ponder: This is an attempt to give you concise but short information on your conclusions. Please note that volumes of print exists on these subjects. If you have further questions, or want to know more, we need to find  better alternative to writing relly long posts.

1. God knows you from the foundation of the world. He knows you better than you know you, and given choices and knows the path you will take. God can place obstacles in your path and can mete out punishment in order to discipline and correct. He is the Father, after all. God set up a system of salvation at the beginning know that Adam and Eve would sin. That is how death entered into the world. It was our choice and God allowed it because that's what we wished. Sin messes up and breaks everything.

2. God controls nature as God cannot be separated from nature. The Father's job is creation and sustaining of that creation. We see this everyday in every facet of life. Thousands of species disappear and new ones take their place. This means plants, animals, and everything else that's not human. He creates new human life by infusing the soul into the body. That is a matter of faith and cannot be scientifically proven, but Scripture tells us so. Though we all share common body aspects and traits, no two people are the same, physically or of the soul. The soul is what makes you, well, you.

3. I can't make that jump. Nurture is in do doubt "built into" us and is a part of our set of characteristics. I cannot give you a complete synopsis here as it could fill volumes. To summarize, it is  audiophera (Greek NT term meaning matters not pertaining to salvation). What color shirt you chose, whether you decide to wear a diaper with a print or not, and using your diaper all fall into this category. Nurture is part of nature but has no bearing on salvation.

4. God never intends to control us. He just knows things we don't. He will, however, work all things for good which is contrary to your sinful nature. There may be means of discipline or punishment as necessary to keep you on the right path. He also richly richly rewards and blesses you daily often without asking or knowledge; often completely oblivious to us.

Ephesians 1:3–14 is misused and abused by Christians and non-Christians alike. Careful study of this particular passage with others in its original language (Greek) in its context (and with other, similar  passages in Scripture) makes it clear that predestination is God's will for all mankind to be saved; those who believe that the death of Jesus accomplished the removal of all sin from you and me are welcomed into heaven at our death and on the last will be raised from the dead (resurrected as was Jesus) and reunited with the perfect body God intended for us from the beginning to inhabit a new heaven and earth of which we all have communion (or community) with Him.

Hope this sheds some light on the subject and sorry for the book.

 

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@ppdude welcome to the party! :)

Now, regarding what you've said, I think you've made some very clear contradictions. Specifically here:

1 hour ago, ppdude said:

. God knows you from the foundation of the world. He knows you better than you know you, and given choices and knows the path you will take

Which DEFINITELY contradicts your later statement:

1 hour ago, ppdude said:

It was our choice and God allowed it because that's what we wished.

The whole point of this theory is that, logically, IF God knew you from the foundations of the earth AND decided to create you anyway, THEN your free will is nothing but an illusion; a byproduct of our heightened awareness.

I'm asking something very difficult of everyone here: I'm asking you to look at God outside of a religious perspective and try to see things from a purely logical view. Now I know that God "transcends logic" in some ways. But I also believe that he IS logical, even if we don't always see him as such. If you cannot do that then this thread probably isn't for you.

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OP, While I superficially agree with your conclusion, I have to fault your method.  Specifically, it doesn't build from a minimal set of assumptions towards a conclusion.  Granted, it is as close to being systematic as many religious discussions get. 

Infantwish's duck example is cleaner, but could still benefit from some refinement.  Do ducks cease to be ducks when they become muddy (and thus are brown instead of purple)?  It is also deductive, and so fails with any assumption, observation, or deductive step.

 

On 6/6/2018 at 12:37 PM, Infantwish said:

Ultimately though, the only person who can change your mind is you.

In practice, sadly, this is generally true.  The scientific ideal is to replace unnecessary assumptions and bad conclusions & observations.  However, in practice, this is a bit like replacing a building's foundation from within the building. 

 

On 5/6/2018 at 1:50 PM, Wannatripbaby said:

I'm not interested in debating the “moral implications” of Predestination.

A useful narrowing of the topic.  Touching on usefulness might have been useful.  How would the decisions of a believer be different if that believer believed in free will instead of predestination?  We should remember that if God is all-powerful, Christ could have been a theologian or a philosopher.  Carpentry might not have been an accident.  Unlike theology and philosophy, woodworks have got to work.

 

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@BitterGrey welcome to the party! :)

Wait, I think I already used that greeting on ppdude. Whoops.

Anyhoo, one thing you said stuck out to me:

8 minutes ago, BitterGrey said:

How would the decisions of a believer be different if that believer believed in free will instead of predestination?

THAT is what I'm trying to determine. Whether or not you have free will is completely irreligious except in as much as it effects your choices. It is my theory that believing in my form of Predestination is ultimately a good thing. Because it dulls the bite of adversity and strengthens the thankfulness for when good things happen. At least that's the way I look at it.

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Predestination or free-will are neither good or bad. One cannot classify concepts such as these that way, only the effects which they may bring might be considered good or bad, and even then that could vary considerably depending on the viewpoint of whoever is deciding that. This way of thinking which is doctrine of many denominations falls flat on it's face when you consider this: if there is good and it's opposite of bad inherent in anything, then the same standards would also apply to God who created evil as well as good. Therefore either God has sinned or God is a hypocrite in judging us for his same failings. If we have free will, then God erred in giving us something knowing that we would use it wrongfully, much the same as giving a loaded gun to a child would be, yet if we are predestined then none of this is our fault as we could do nothing else and all bad would be the fault of God. If he simply knows what our free-will is going to be then that too is a form of predestination isn't it?

The bottom line is that we don't really have much free-will at all if we have any. Predestination is the only answer which adequately addresses all the questions without reservation. 

Bettypoh

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22 hours ago, Wannatripbaby said:

THAT is what I'm trying to determine. Whether or not you have free will is completely irreligious except in as much as it effects your choices. It is my theory that believing in my form of Predestination is ultimately a good thing. Because it dulls the bite of adversity and strengthens the thankfulness for when good things happen.

In that case, I've greatly misunderstood the primary point of the OP, and will bow out after offering an anecdote.  Predestination affects the interpretation of causality, in turn affecting the interpretation of morality, upon which words like "good" and "bad" hang.

One time my bicycle was stolen from the church parking lot while I was in Bible study.  My first and third thought were about how it was stolen, and about how I could replace it.  These weren't notably affected by a belief in predestination.  The second thought, however, was unique to the doctrine: "God stole my bike."  (Yes, technically, it was God's bike, but still, the thought occurred.)

 

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