Bit of Controversy in the World of Diaper Companies - ABUniverse vs. NetDiapers

[h200420012]

I had three problems with the old management, apart from the OBVIOUS....

[reval5]

On 8/4/2016 at 1:40 PM, erevu said:

I really don't get what pricing has to do with any of this.

[Brandiaper]

On 8/4/2016 at 10:22 AM, Elfy said:

[...]

[Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover]

On 08/04/2016 at 10:42 AM, minachan16 said:

And really, while I understand the fear of copyright infingement, what makes them think anyone would want to deal with the previous ABU owners' new company? They're the ones that let customer relations go to pot, right, so why are they afraid the ABDL community would ever buy from them given their reputation? Doesn't makes sense to make all this hub-bub publicly.

This one's really simple to answer: brand confusion. ABU sells SDK's, they're now identified with ABU as an ABU product. An inferior-quality knock-off could cause customers who aren't familiar with the old ABU and the fiasco it left behind to order these knock-offs believing their an ABU product, both cutting into Casey's profit margins and creating a customer service nightmare when people buying from NetDiapers start calling ABU to complain about the knock-off's quality. Casey's controlling his brand, protecting his trademark, and making sure his customers don't get screwed, and I applaud him for that.

19 hours ago, sunwutian said:

As for the prices, we are definitely getting gouged. That should be obvious to anyone, we're a niche market and we pay dearly for it. You can find the companies ABU and Bambino are using selling the same products on Alibaba. Imported, you're looking at about 60 cents a diaper last I checked. But the real problem: you have to order 5000 of them at a time. And if it's a bad batch, good luck getting your money back from China.

You're not getting gouged for the quality of the diaper that you're actually getting. Alibaba is full of shady dealers in China as well as legitimate ones, and that 60 cents per diaper is assuming that you're going with a "base model" that has no special customizations whatsoever made to it. ABU and Bambino almost definitely add at least some proprietary processes to their diapers that raise the price but also increase quality. The real catch will always be the shipping though, even if your diapers are coming on a slow boat from China, their weight is astronomical and drives up the price of shipping even at freight rates. Even if the minimum order is 5,000 diapers at 60 cents a piece, (and I honestly would expect that to be packages, not individual pieces,) the $3,000 is just the tip of the iceberg for manufacturing. Want SDKs that actually hold something like the V2s? Be prepared to shell out for an upgraded core instead of the base model. Want some level of quality control? That's even more money. I'd expect manufacturing to realistically cost closer to a minimum of $10,000, especially once shipping is factored in, and that's not accounting for things like warehouse space and trucks to get the diapers from the port to the warehouse or "free" shipping to customers.

On 08/04/2016 at 10:43 AM, AwakenEvil said:

So how many owners has ABU had? I'm under the impression that's it's 3 different owners cause I had someone from net diapers contact me and his name wasnt

[Brandiaper]

2 minutes ago, Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover said:

Anyone who does business with NetDiapers will get (or quite possibly not get,) exactly what they deserve. The old owners of ABU were deceptive, borderline criminal, and had ties to a site that reeked of pedo affiliations, and were just generally shady and should be avoided at all costs. I don't blame Casey for warning his customers about them, as it stands NetDiapers could really harm his business by selling inferior product mistaken for actual ABU products, and after all the work he did to clean up the mess these guys made, I can understand why he'd be pissed at them coming back and trying to steal his customers with deceptive tactics.

If what I've highlighted in italics is true, then I will go ahead and wait for somebody else to make a comparison. I'm perfectly happy wearing a Tena Slip Maxi or something similar until then. Personally I'm just tired of these companies (ABU, Bambinos, Rearz, & probably more) grossly capitalizing on the whole ABDL crowd. They know the majority of us

[Cheatz911]

Bambino Bellissimos cost $2.04 per diaper.

Bambino Classico/Bianco/Teddy costs $1.58 per diaper.

ABU Space/Little Paws cost $1.94 per diaper.

ABU Simple costs $1.87 per diaper. Holds 156oz.

ABU SDK/Cushies cost $1.74 per diaper.

Dry 24/7 costs $1.55 per diaper. Holds 96oz.

Abena M4 costs $1.42 per diaper.

Molicare Super Plus costs $1.40 per diaper.

Depend costs $0.87 per diaper. Holds 24oz?

If you are wondering why a package of 10 diapers cost so much, you should look into shipping prices, costs of boxes, labor costs.

Do you know that it costs almost as much money to send a pack of 10 vs a case of 80 to you?

Did you know the average cost of a box is between $2- $6 a piece depending on size?

Did you know that Casey is investing money in to a company? Did you know he had employees to pay? Do you know how much it costs to run a website? Do you know how much it costs to have a company maintain your website? Do you know that each transaction that is made, card companies, transaction programs take a percentage of your earnings? Did you know that Casey has to pay taxes? Did you know that he had to pay for electricity/water/trash pickup? Do you know he has to pay rent for his facility? Did you know he's probably still paying off loans with interest for all the materials, tools, and accessories to run a business? Did you know he has to pay for his inventory of diapers?

Do you still wonder why a pack of 10 diapers cost $3.49 per diaper? Let's do some math.

$34.99 per pack of 10.

UPS probably has given him a discount so I'm guessing it costs at least $10-$12 maybe more. Let's say 10 for an even number. Now the diapers are down to $24.99. Some say it costs Casey $0.60 per diaper. $25-$6=$19. Box costs $2, so we are at $17. Any idea of how much it costs to ship the container halfway around the world? I have no idea and the Alibaba supplier doesn't have free shipping anywhere on their listings. I'm sure this is reflected on the price. You also have to pay to have the container shipped from Port to location. I'm a truck driver and judging that it could cost between $200- $500. You also have to rent the container, it can cost $100- $300.

There are other missing numbers that I don't have access to, but it costs more money to break a case and send it to you then the case itself. A half case costs you$2.29 per diaper.

To relate though, working in the restaurant industry as a manager, I've learned that a lot of promotional prices leave them with very little profit. A two for $5.99 deal at Pizza chains usually results in about 11 cents per order of $13.06 with tax is profit.

Before you yell price gouging, why not research before you call someone greedy. I can also assure you he doesn't want to do this for free. This shouldn't be a charity price.

For the amount of time that Casey puts into this business is worth the profit he gets. He's making it an enjoyable, likeable, great service.

For your own good buy a case and save a ton of money over time if $3.49 per diaper isn't justifying to you. Buy a half case for $2.29 per diaper, but a case for $1.87- $1.95 per diaper. You'll have diapers that are the best on the market.

Go ahead and give your hard earned money to a known con man (netdiapers), liar, and potential pedophile. If you believe he deserves the money. If you believe he'll send your items, and not be garbage.

[DailyDi]

"If you are wondering why a package of 10 diapers cost so much, you should look into shipping prices, costs of boxes, labor costs. "

^ This. As someone pointed out, yes you can get adult diapers for 60 cents a piece from China - but then you have to pay for them to be shipped to the US on a cargo ship, then transported from the dock to you. Then you need to pay for a warehouse to put them in. And people to stock them and pack and ship orders. And Boxes, tape,label printers, labels plus normal business expenses. And then the cost to ship them to the customer.

That is why the normal retail mark-up is 3X wholesale price - Cost of goods + Cost to Deliver + Profit to make it worth the hassle. I'm able to squeak by at a lower ratio on the pocket diapers by working out of my existing home office and taking a smaller profit to make them affordable for most, but a big operation to handle disposables can't do that.

Obviously the cost concerns are a side issue to the copyright and ethical concerns in this case, but since price was brought up several times I thought I would address it.

[Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover]

16 hours ago, Brandiaper said:

If what I've highlighted in italics is true, then I will go ahead and wait for somebody else to make a comparison. I'm perfectly happy wearing a Tena Slip Maxi or something similar until then.

Ask anyone who had dealings with "old ABU" what they were like before Casey took over and you'll hear this from them as well. I was about to order right when this first started to come to light, so I naturally pulled the plug on my order with "old ABU." I wasn't going to be the first to mention them, but someone already brought up the infamous "Star Diapers," so I'll elaborate on old ABU's affiliations with possible pedos. Basically, "Star Diapers" were a split order with a site that smacked of a front for pedophiles. Oh, the diapers were typical AB/DL printed fare, but that wasn't the problem. The problem was that the other site also featured a topless teen boy "modeling" their diaper, and sold a "catalog," (or at least that's what they called it,) of their product that supposedly contained more images like the ones mentioned. I believe the site itself was shut down, but don't intend to ever go back there, and won't mention it in case anyone lurking here would capitalize on knowledge of its existence should it be back up for some horrible reason. Kyle over at ABU was informed about this, but turned a blind eye to it, and lost several customers as a result.

As for "old ABU" itself, the "deceptive," and "borderline criminal" comments stem from how they handled orders as they turned the company into a disaster that Casey would eventually turn around. Old ABU lied to a lot of customers about orders that they'd placed, stating that they would ship and then never shipping them. It's widely believed that they didn't cancel the orders because they were hoping to get enough people to pre-order more diapers for them to do another run of them and fulfill their orders, which they didn't do. They intentionally failed to inform customers as they were going out of business, and forced many AB/DLs to file a chargeback to have their money returned to them. (Even if you paid with PayPal and got your money back that way, you still had to file a dispute that served the same purpose.) This, along with pre-order delays, resulted in borderline criminal activity, and I say borderline criminal because some people did receive orders if merchandise was in stock. Not everyone knows this, but in the United States, preorders cannot be solicited until a product has a release date, and those preorders must be delivered within 30 days of payment being received unless the company informs you of a longer delivery time, or you can sue them. Even if the company informs you of a longer release window, they still have 30 days around their expect release date to get the product to you or you can still sue them. (Most people obviously don't do this, but legally they can.) Also, if the product isn't marked as a pre-order, (which it wasn't in the case of old ABU,) the company behind it has 30 days to deliver unless they tell you it'll take longer and give you a specific window of time for the delivery, or you can sue them then too. The reason for these laws is precisely to prevent companies from doing what old ABU was doing by kicking the can down the road until they could afford to create the product they'd already taken people's money for. This is also why sites like Amazon typically don't charge you until a product ships when you place a pre-order. They know that if they did, their customers could sue them if something took longer than expected to be released. Smaller companies typically don't have this luxury though and tend to take the risk that their customers won't sue them if the slow boat from China is slower than usual, and most customers are typically fine with this until things start to take months to arrive. Old ABU wasn't just a lot of smoke, but a five alarm fire when it comes to bad business practices, and I would definitely let someone else gamble on them first to see if they've truly turned around, and so far it looks like just the opposite has happened. They've retained information they weren't supposed to have and are stealing what is now ABU's trademarked intellectual property.

[sunwutian]

On Friday, August 05, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover said:

Alibaba is full of shady dealers in China as well as legitimate ones, and that 60 cents per diaper is assuming that you're going with a "base model" that has no special customizations whatsoever made to it.

Actually, the base models are 30 cents each. I said 60 cents because that's the top-end price. And since it's China, that's the sucker's price: everything in China is negotiable. It's a bartering economy over there. Here are the links:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ABDL-adult-Baby-print-diapers-buying_60282484718.html

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Adult-Diapers-carton-pictures-print-by_60323333810.html

Casey actually responded and stated this is not the distributor they use. But obviously he won't tell us who they really use. But the bottom line is: they're buying these from China through Chinese companies with Chinese machines and Chinese abusive labor practices and pay. They ordered a product, and are selling it to us for more money. They're resellers.

Look, I'm all for it! I buy from ABU and Bambino both! Because I am weary to send a shady Chinese company $10000 or more, because I don't have room to store 20000 diapers in my house, because if anything goes wrong I'll have no recourse.

I know ABU and Bambino have to pay their own salaries, taxes on their sales, shipping fees (which are really high!) to send to my doorstep, etc. But I wasn't born yesterday: they're making a profit. And a good one. This is a full-time, boring, exhausting job. You don't do this job because it's fun as a charity. So don't be naive about it. They're charging as much as they possibly can before sales would dip too low and they'd make less profit. Like any good business does.

But anyone who has $25000 to spare can get into this game. Look at how many disposable AB/DL diaper companies there are today! Classy Comfort, Aww So Cute, Bambino (Magnifico, Bellisimo, Teddy, Classico, Bianco), AB Universe (Space, Lavender, LittlePawz, Simple, Cushies, Super Dry Kids, etc), Buntewindel/Fabine (Exclusive), Rearz (Safari, Princess, Seduction, Spoiled), Snuggies/Tykables (Waddler), BareBum, Crinklz, Cuddlz, MyDiaper (Night Animal, Night), Dotty Diaper Company (Pink Dotty the Pony), Sexy Adult Diaper (despite the name, they're AB themed), Diappizz (they stole your Cushies design but added two tapes per side), NetDiapers (another one stealing your SDK design), etc!

I'll pay the price because I think it's worth it (I consider it insurance markup), but I'm not gonna pretend any company in the world is doing me a favor when selling to me.

On Saturday, August 06, 2016 at 3:44 AM, Cheatz911 said:

Before you yell price gouging, why not research before you call someone greedy. I can also assure you he doesn't want to do this for free. This shouldn't be a charity price.

I agree 100%. If they weren't making enough profit to be worth it, they'd stop selling.

I wish they were more fair on the medium range though. I won't buy SDKs because for only 11% more money, I get a diaper that lasts twice as long! That's just common sense. The SDK prices are criminal. They're not even full print diapers, just a tape panel. Bambino are similarly bad with their medium range Teddies and Classicos.

Plus the no front waistband and single-tape per side are form over function and make the SDK product perform worse.

I'm never gonna buy from netdiapers.com because it's super shady. But it doesn't surprise me at all that someone saw an opportunity to undercut ABU on SDK pricing.

All I'm saying is, if the more than $3 a diaper at case quantity model of Rearz catches on, and Bambino and ABU up their prices to match then I'm gonna start seriously considering a Chinese order of my own. But for now I will keep buying at $2 a diaper for premium, and wait for sales to pay $1.20 a diaper for medium.

On Saturday, August 06, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover said:

Manufacturing in China would have been cheaper, but the cost of carting the diapers across the ocean would have negated any savings I'd have made by manufacturing them there.

Boat shipping 20000 diapers will cost a lot, that is true. But there's a reason 100% of AB/DL diapers are made in China. There's no way it'd be cheaper to make them in the US. We have much stricter labor laws and higher costs of living.

But at the end of the day, unless Casey shares his supplier, and breaks down his costs, we are all speculating on how much he is profiting per sale. All we can say for sure is he's making enough money that it's worth all the incredible trouble it is to run a business like this.

[DL4LIFE]

On 8/6/2016 at 1:44 AM, Cheatz911 said:

[Hookedondiapers]

They misspelled "Buntewindel", which makes "colored diaper" translate to "riot diaper".

[PullUpDiaperLover]

Just saw this thread, noticed SDK are off the site...............

[Dubious]

Like pointed out in a massive reply; Buying in bulk is almost always the cheapest, its the same diapers and bags, but in bigger quantities/boxes and there is not a big difference in shipping cost since it mostly goes on weight

AND, as long as people buy the stuff there is no reason to lower the prices

[thedottydiapercompany]

Hi

Just want to point out considering we are mentioned in this thread regarding price, That we actuly don't sell the "Dotty the pony" or our new diaper "Super BOOMPA" our self's.

We have a guide price and we sell them on re-sellers, we don't set the price they do. This allows our sellers to find a level of profit they are comfortable with based on them selling.

Also we wish having $25,000 and you can have your own diaper was the hole story. Here in the UK, you need a import license, A ltd Company, And other small things i wont go into. Then you have to make sure you design something that's going to sell. Easier said than done. Then you have to find a factory that is not going to rip you off by under-filling or using worse quality materials such as week plastics that leak, I was with a Seller last night dropping off stock and we had a look a diaper pack that was such bad quality he simply could not sell them as anything other than reject stock!

[Mr. Sea Otter]

On 8/7/2016 at 9:23 PM, sunwutian said:

I wish they were more fair on the medium range though. I won't buy SDKs because for only 11% more money, I get a diaper that lasts twice as long! That's just common sense. The SDK prices are criminal. They're not even full print diapers, just a tape panel. Bambino are similarly bad with their medium range Teddies and Classicos.

[Diapered Jason]

The dotty diaper company diapers look pretty good, but one thing I'll never understand is why many of the diaper companies, especially ABU, thought it was a good idea to go with a picnic table cloth design on the side panels, lol.

[Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover]

Sunwutian, while I agree with you that the list price in China is the sucker's price, the two links you've provided are to a supplier that's only shipped two orders according to their history, which leads me to believe that they're a bit shadier than whatever distributor Casey is using. The 30 cents for the base model assumes a diaper that's effectively useless though--different upgrades make radically difference increases in the price depending on what they are. For example, Rearz uses a USA-manufactured Grade A core and some of the best SAP on the market. That SAP drives the price through the roof and Rearz acknowledges that it costs four times more than what anyone else uses. Depending on what Casey is putting into ABU's products, the prices are going to be comparable and equally high. While it doesn't always work out this way, Chinese companies manufacturing goods for the US are required to adhere to US labor and safety standards, even while manufacturing in China. Companies that knowingly fail to do so can and do have their exports blocked from US ports, although this is rare as a most play by the rules. Every company is a "reseller" under your definition though, and while ABU is obviously reselling a product manufactured in China, they're having it made to their specifications, and custom specifications always cost a lot more than a base model, even if you negotiate downward on per unit pricing, the materials needed for what AB/DLs demand from their diapers drive the prices through the roof. If you want cheap, go buy Depend and slap stickers on it, those are basically what cheap adult diapers look like when you negotiate downward and don't splurge for the frills AB/DLs want.

Obviously ABU is a business, and obviously they're going to charge a reasonable mark-up, which I expect them too. I don't think $3+ per boutique diaper is unreasonable though, not when I know what the materials they're using cost, and how one change in the supply chain could drive additional manufacturing costs through the roof. Cases are usually significantly cheaper and those $3 dollar diapers easily become closer to $1.50, since the cost of shipping is drastically reduced by selling in case form rather than as individual packages.

As far as manufacturing in the US vs. manufacturing in China goes, at the end of the day, the difference in cost is mostly negligible. China has shadier labor practices and lower pay, but their machinery is also usually less efficient and the cost of freight shipping from the other side of the world negates most of your savings from dealing with them. While American labor costs significantly more, modern American factories are fully automated, so you're not paying as many people to run the machines, and the increase in what you're required to pay your workers is comparable to shipping something from China. The same regulations are in play whether you make your product in the US, China, or anywhere else if you want to sell it in the US. As a business you need an import license if you manufacture overseas, (and that business needs an export license, both of which cost a small fortune,) and that license can be revoked if your product doesn't comply with US regulations when it gets to US shores.

Also, Casey may be making a decent profit, but I think most of you are overestimating it. For consumer products like diapers, tissues, bandages, etc., most manufacturers only make a few cents for each unit that they sell through retail locations. You might pay a few dollars per package for each of these things, but the net profit for each company doesn't even total a dollar per package in most situations. (Gross profit is a different story.) Casey is making diapers for AB/DLs and doesn't have physical storefronts selling his product, which presents an entirely different set of challenges. Since AB/DLs are a niche group, Casey has to adjust his pricing to compensate for fewer sales overall, and for smaller production runs which are always more expensive per piece than larger ones. His profits are obviously decent or he wouldn't still be in business, but I doubt they're as high as most people here probably think they are. Casey isn't living in a mansion somewhere with gold-plated walls that we've paid for, but he is making enough to have a successful business.

On 08/19/2016 at 6:22 PM, Mr. Sea Otter said:

When people complain about the price of diapers like SDKs or Cushies, and then say $3+ is crazy, I don't understand how they can blame anyone but themselves.

[sunwutian]

On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Mr. Sea Otter said:

When people complain about the price of diapers like SDKs or Cushies, and then say $3+ is crazy, I don't understand how they can blame anyone but themselves.

[Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover]

The $3+ on Bambino's site is a direct result of having to ship them from Canada to the US and then shipping again. Ordering directly from Rearz I've paid close to $2.42 per diaper after international shipping and foreign transaction fees, which really isn't that bad for diapers by the case. Cooshietooshies might come out to be a few dollars cheaper for me, but only by a few dollars.

As for buying from China, your recourse would unfortunately have to be some sort of business insurance if you ever were to do it, and with that comes the other costs and responsibilities of a business, even if your business is just an eBay page that sells surplus stock of your diapers. AB/DL companies don't reveal their suppliers for the same reason most companies don't reveal their suppliers, which is to prevent corporate espionage from their "competition," and to avoid tipping their hand to potential new competition. The exception to this is usually electronics manufacturers, and even then it's often the manufacturers who reveal the client and not the other way around. (There also aren't too many electronics manufacturers to begin with, so it's not difficult to figure out which one is producing any given part for any major company in that field.)

[thedottydiapercompany]

On 20/08/2016 at 6:50 PM, Diapered Jason said:

The dotty diaper company diapers look pretty good, but one thing I'll never understand is why many of the diaper companies, especially ABU, thought it was a good idea to go with a picnic table cloth design on the side panels, lol.

Well i dont know why they do baring they let the factory pick the sides and dont design them and only focus on the middle?!?!?

Personally when it came to the sides we pick it as our feature and picked Dots and designed a 3 dot Patten that you will see on all our diapers.

And then we chose the Dotty Diaper Company as a name to highlight this. Its like a calling card and you know its from us based on the sides no matter what Patten it is in the middle.

This is one of the reasons we entered into the market i felt that as a designer i could make the whole package look a lot better, and so far the feedback we have had tends to indicate that people are liking how we do things.

23 hours ago, Dirty Diaper/Maxipad Lover said:

This is pretty much the same on the other side of the pond too. You need an import license if you're operating as a business, most states also require a business license for that specific state, and while you could theoretically sell a product without any form of incorporation, only a fool would do so if they're making over $10,000, at which point you'd want to file for an LLC, which is the US equivalent of an LTD, or even just fully incorporate. (For those who aren't aware, incorporating is basically liability insurance that prevents people from suing you as an individual for disputes with your business. If such a lawsuit were to occur, you could lose business assets, but a plaintiff couldn't take your house or your car if you're incorporated, while they could if you aren't.) I also don't think most people realize how hard it is to find a factory that isn't going to rip you off by using poor quality materials even if they say they'll use high quality ones. (Honest factories will always cost more because there's more demand for them.)

This is the problem we found when we 1st started marketing Dotty in the UK, every one said oh they have done it we will do it and we wont buy your product.

We even had one "Mistress" put the phone down on us after saying "Thanks for showing me that it can be done nice and cheap", It didn't take them long to see that it was a minefield and actuly come back to us!

I am worried a glut of Poor Quality Diapers are about to come to market with Sub Standard Materials just to try and make a quick Buck.

Case in point a well known brand has just brought out a new diaper, when i was delivering 10 cases of Dotty to a Seller of ours here in the uk i asked to see a sample of it. What i found was a very cheap diaper that was already damaged on the plastic outer sheeting having not been removed from the bag yet and also missing any form of Touchdown Sheet so it could not adjusted, even though the tapes could do that.

[rosalie.bent]

Questions regarding price are always complex and never simple. For example, here in Australia we have bought some of the RearZ print nappies and they are quite expensive. HOWEVER, they last my baby up to 12 hours or up to three times as much as another nappy that only costs half as much. Obviously the Rearz are better value. But it is more than that. My baby is fully incontinent and so going nappy-less is not an option. Therefore quality, comfort and security all rate

[eatenbywo1ves]

On Friday, August 05, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Cheatz911 said:

[WakkoWannaBe]

" If you do order from this person at netdiapers, be very aware that you are dealing with a potential con man that has supported websites involving pedophilia. A person that cared nothing about customers. A liar. A thief. Stay away!"

You know how people analyze Trump's tweets? You know how there's usually some sort of pattern? This, to me, feels like it could have been written by Trump.

Not trying to get political here, I just thought that that was worth pointing out!

[WBDaddy]

I don't have a lot to say about the ABU/Netdiaper conflict beyond what's been said. If Casey feels his trademark has been infringed, then he needs to hire a lawyer and slap a C&D on Neovi.

[Amyuser]

We daddy do not be fooled when shipping is "free" that's because the money to cover it is already built into the price you pay, no company does mail order and truly ships free , that is an unsustainable business model, yes you can decide hear and there to give product away , discount it in some way or offer it in a contest type situation, but giving something away on a daily basis everyday of the year will end up sooner or later causing that business to fold and cease operation ! And on the other hand a business that builds itself as mail order and not a traditional fee for service walk out with your item, also to me on some level says to me that is a chosen cost of doing business and rightfully should not be passed along to the customer, unless the customer had the ability to buy the product through a tradiational business channel for a lesser price and chose not to, that is why many companies that charge shipping and handling don't get any of my business because they are passing along a cost of doing business that they decided on not you.If you choose to completely limit the availability of your product to the customer it becomes your expense , just look at the "wellness brief" advertising for proof of that they list shipping as an additional savings of $20 dollars off the "unusual" "infrequent sale price" they are always running some kind of sale gimmicks to compel you to buy ,to give the illusion of saving money when in fact they are giving you the product for the "normal" customary price .

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk