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ForbiddenFruit

Don'T Know Why, But I Took It Upon Myself To Consider "Can You Be A Gay Christian?"

45 posts in this topic

Well, I know someone who is Christian not because he's raised to be, but because the idea of God makes sense to him. He's also gay.

So yeah, it is possible. Just not for people who follow the doctrine of the bible word for word.

...of course, nobody does anymore. I can point out some lines in scripture NOBODY follows anymore, such as telling slaves to obey their earthly masters.

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On the other hand, it's probably not a good idea to go to most arab countries and say that you're a gay muslim.... They like to stone people to death for that.

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I am a straight christian deist.

When the members of some christian churches find out i am a christian diest the first thing you hear from then is that i am not a christian because i don.t belong to a church and don't believe in orgaised religian.

deist don't believe in judgeing someone on there sexual orentation or because they are a nudist.

in fact Benjamin Franklin was a nudist, founding father, and a Deist

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Speaking as a Catholic, I know that my Church teaches that homosexual desire is not a sin, but acting on that desire is. We urge gays and lesbians to be chaste in their love and to remain committed to God and their fellow Christians.

That said, I'm more progressive than my Church in that I don't see any reason to view homosexuality as sinful. Abusing love and sexuality are sinful regardless of one's orientation, so in my mind, a same-sex couple based on genuine love and commitment deserves the same respect as a heterosexual couple.

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The only direct mention of homosexuality in the Bible is from the Old Testament book of Leviticus, Chapter 18, verse 22, which says that a man should not lie with another man as he lies with a woman, the book of Leviticus was written as a code of living for members of the Tribe of Levi. If you aren't a member of that tribe, then the rules from Leviticus don't apply to you anyways.

Leviticus is not just instructions and rules for the tribe of Levi. Almost every chapter of Leviticus starts with "The Lord said to Moses, speak to all the children of Isreal". It isn't till chapters 21 and 22 that he says "Speak to the priests and to Aaron and his sons", who were the Levites.

Let's focus on the core teachings of Christ and examine what he said being a good person was all about. Examine the Sermon on the Mount if you wish to live as Christ did.

Blessed are the poor, the meek, the sad, the hungry, the persecuted, the peaceful, the pure.

Woe to the rich, the gluttonous, the jovial, the boastful.

Don't hold a grudge.

Don't swear.

Turn the other cheek.

Be generous.

Love your enemy.

Do right because it IS right, not to gain favor with men.

Worship in secret, for God lives in secret.

Pray simply.

Don't store up earthly wealth. For where your treasure is your heart is also.

Serve God, not man.

Don't be worrisome.

Judge not, for you will be judged and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Don't be wasteful.

Beware false teachers, by their works you will know them.

Heed these words and you will indeed be thought wise.

Nowhere in there do I see any mention of sexuality.

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Righteousness does not exist in the human heart, because we're all sinners. The problem, after reading through all the posts, is that everyone has something of value to lend to the discussion. All religions are the product of human thought, and therefore prone to bias, bigotry, ignorance, intolerance, and other gross inadequacies. I love Jesus. I hate my sinfulness. There's so much I need to deal with in me that I really can't worry about what you're wrestling with, and certainly could never accurately judge another person. But one thing I know. Jesus loves you, just as much as He loves me. I don't really think I need to say anything else. I know that Jesus loves me, despite my incontinence, my being an AB/DL, wanting to be a baby girl, telling lies, thinking bad things about people that don't deserve it, etc. So I love you too. If you're good enough for His love, I need to love you. I do. Luv and hugs, evybody!

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If you are a christian then thatmeans that you follow the teachings of Jesus.

There for if you study the teachings of Jesus you will find no mention of sexuality either for or against, if in doubt go to the source teachings for guidance not someone elses reading of them.

Romans 3:23

Mathew 7:1

Just my opinion.

Mal.

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The reason why so many Christians are opposed to gay marriage is that marriage is a picture of God's relationship to the church. (to them, us) a marriage between two people of the same sex is a perversion (for lack of a better word) of that picture. Not saying that we should or shouldn't legislate our religion, but as you can see that is why there is so much opposition to it. Please don't go there with, divorce rate of Christians. No church condones divorce rates at these levels.

My personal opinion was, that all unions should be domestic unions under the law. If you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it. However, of lately, with all the "your a hater" and "if you have that opinion, keep it to yourself" the gay marriage crowd has shown themselves to be nothing but fascists and thought police. So, they lost some of the sympathy they once had with me. It's clear that this campaign is an assault on religion in general and has less to do with Mary and Debbie or Bill and Bob wanting Tom share their lives together.

First of all, I gotta disagree with your first statement. Some people like to draw this comparison between marriage and God's relationship with his church, but I have always found it totally irrelevant. I don't see how a religious ritual whose aim is to deliver God's blessing upon a couple (two people) could validly represent the relationship between the Creator and his creatures. You also say "if you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it", but you see we have just established that is impossible because the majority of Christian churches will not celebrate gay marriage.

 

Also, when you say that it's pretty much a church's right to decide the rules that its members should follow I think you are forgetting that "the church" is not just a board made up of a small number of people sitting around a table getting to pick which rules the whole religious community should follow. "That church" is actually made of of ALL the believers, and since there are loads of gay christian believers who would like to get married they should have a say too in the debate, not just outside of the church, but within the church, if they are active members of that church. I don't believe it's fair to just tell these people "well then you are free to choose another church if you don't find this convenient", because those people might as well be as fervent believers as any other straight member, perhaps even more.

Personally I didn't have a problem leaving the catholic church when I realised that the majority of them 'disliked' gay couples, as I don't necessarily see them as the only representation on earth of my God/faith, but I appreciate that other Catholics might not be able to do the same, and it is extremely cruel to leave these people with the only option to either live lonely for the rest of their lives or leave their religious community, without even trying to have a debate with them first.

 

The problem with organised religions is that they have become too much like authoritarian institutions, where someone writes the rules down and everyone else must obey. The people in the clergy forget that, last time I checked, there were no angelic creatures or divinities among them, therefore, since we are all human here, a lay believer has got just as much say on dogmatic issues as a priest, and a simple priest has got just as much say as the pope/ the archbishop of Canterbury (delete as applicable), and my interpretation of the bible could be just as valid as pope Francis'. So ultimately who are they to impose their own interpretation of the scriptures on everyone else and sell it as 'the Truth' and then use it to say that "Our church does not allow gay marriage, if you want that get a civil version of it".

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The reason why so many Christians are opposed to gay marriage is that marriage is a picture of God's relationship to the church. (to them, us) a marriage between two people of the same sex is a perversion (for lack of a better word) of that picture. Not saying that we should or shouldn't legislate our religion, but as you can see that is why there is so much opposition to it. Please don't go there with, divorce rate of Christians. No church condones divorce rates at these levels.

My personal opinion was, that all unions should be domestic unions under the law. If you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it. However, of lately, with all the "your a hater" and "if you have that opinion, keep it to yourself" the gay marriage crowd has shown themselves to be nothing but fascists and thought police. So, they lost some of the sympathy they once had with me. It's clear that this campaign is an assault on religion in general and has less to do with Mary and Debbie or Bill and Bob wanting Tom share their lives together.

First of all, I gotta disagree with your first statement. Some people like to draw this comparison between marriage and God's relationship with his church, but I have always found it totally irrelevant. I don't see how a religious ritual whose aim is to deliver God's blessing upon a couple (two people) could validly represent the relationship between the Creator and his creatures. You also say "if you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it", but you see we have just established that is impossible because the majority of Christian churches will not celebrate gay marriage. 

 

Also, when you say that it's pretty much a church's right to decide the rules that its members should follow I think you are forgetting that "the church" is not just a board made up of a small number of people sitting around a table getting to pick which rules the whole religious community should follow. "That church" is actually made of of ALL the believers, and since there are loads of gay christian believers who would like to get married they should have a say too in the debate, not just outside of the church, but within the church, if they are active members of that church. I don't believe it's fair to just tell these people "well then you are free to choose another church if you don't find this convenient", because those people might as well be as fervent believers as any other straight member, perhaps even more.

Personally I didn't have a problem leaving the catholic church when I realised that the majority of them 'disliked' gay couples, as I don't necessarily see them as the only representation on earth of my God/faith, but I appreciate that other Catholics might not be able to do the same, and it is extremely cruel to leave these people with the only option to either live lonely for the rest of their lives or leave their religious community, without even trying to have a debate with them first.

 

The problem with organised religions is that they have become too much like authoritarian institutions, where someone writes the rules down and everyone else must obey. The people in the clergy forget that, last time I checked, there were no angelic creatures or divinities among them, therefore, since we are all human here, a lay believer has got just as much say on dogmatic issues as a priest, and a simple priest has got just as much say as the pope/ the archbishop of Canterbury (delete as applicable), and my interpretation of the bible could be just as valid as pope Francis'. So ultimately who are they to impose their own interpretation of the scriptures on everyone else and sell it as 'the Truth' and then use it to say that "Our church does not allow gay marriage, if you want that get a civil version of it".

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Just going to put my 0.02 cents in for a moment but first I have a question: If you're attracted to someone of the same-sex

and you really love that person, then isn't that enough? I mean sure, you could have the fancy celebration and the big party

declaring your love for each other but why get married in a church? I'm bi-sexual myself and a Christian but I don't understand

this necessity to same-sex marriages. Most gay people I know don't even believe that there is a God, so what justification

could there be in doing this? Moving along, if there's one thing I've learned about my Father in Heaven, is that He really does

love His Creation and He wants to be with us. You know who doesn't love any one of us? His fallen angels.

 

Now for the life of me I can't figure out why no one in the church wants to talk about Evil. If God exists 

Lucifier does too, right? But when I was attending church no one would discuss this topic with me and

I had some serious questions.These questions have since been answered for me and now I try and live my life

with God in my heart. If you're gay and a Christian, don't get hung up on your faith, God knows you better

than you know yourself. Think of Jesus as your lawyer, he is your defense against the jury of Demons

that wants nothing more than to prosecute you for things they themselves have had their hand in.

 

And to anyone reading this, who thinks I'm completely out of my mind I invite you to have a civil discussion.

I might wear diapers and panties, or lipstick and earrings but it's what comes out of a man that defiles or cleans him.

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Just going to put my 0.02 cents in for a moment but first I have a question: If you're attracted to someone of the same-sex

and you really love that person, then isn't that enough? I mean sure, you could have the fancy celebration and the big party

declaring your love for each other but why get married in a church?

It's getting married in a registry office, not a church, that's important. Legal, civil marriage, not a civil union, because there are bits missing from the latter. For example, where I am, if my partner and I were to get a civil partnership, we would still have less tax breaks than an opposite-sex marriage. Outside of finance, to give two examples out of over 160: our home would be classed differently than a married couples' one (i.e. a 'shared home' under the law rather than a 'family home'), and if we were to adopt with me as legal guardian, and I die, my spouse would have no legal connection to their child that they could have helped me raise for ten years. Not to mention, being 'married' has a social status attached to it.

 

Sure, it'd be damn nice to be allowed to live and let live with my partner, but it'd be a hell of a lot nicer to be able to do so A: with state recognition, B: with all the benefits and acknowledgements that we deserve and C: to be treated fairly under the law.

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On 8/9/2012 at 2:21 PM, pullupsboy89 said:

If I might offer an outsider's point of view....

 

I consider myself straight (I have had fantasies, but nothing more). But I am not a Christian. I have always seen Christians as kind of a paradox. They always speak of forgiveness, and accepting Jesus as their lord and savior, and a spot in heaven for doing so. Yet at the same time, they damn people to hell for views that might not be consistant with their particular sect of Christianity. What I dont understand is if we are all created in God's image, and we are his children, why would he hate us for something like that? In addition, christian specific, if all you have to do is accept Jesus as your lord and savior, shouldnt that be enough?

 

Please, chime in if I have something wrong. As I said, not a Christian.

I just wanted 2 share a long winded reply. I try 2 keep it short but more comes 2 me so I keep typing till I feel I have said what I need 2 say. Sorry if that's offensive 2 some.

Its really not my intention. I have however learned, over the yrs, that no one wants 2 hear things they disagree w/, no matter how they may b presented.

So let me get back 2 replying 2 the above comments if I may.

Well the part about all created in Gods image was totally originally true. Not that it is changed completely but that it has definitely changed.

 What Christians r taught is that when mankind rebelled it opened a door 2 allow SIn into the picture. That part changed everything. Sin disconnected or blocked the connection. God says because u disobeyed me there will b consequences. Do we say all parents who try 2 correct or punish there kids r evil. No So wy is it wrong 4 god 2 punish bad behavior or disobedience. Does that make him a bad parent ? if we r his kids who else has a right 2 make decisions, rules, ?

 

The original perfection we were created in became corrupted by choosing 2 disobey Gods 1 & only request 2 not  touch.

Why ? Who knows ? . We think of course as soon as someone says "don't touch something"  we want it even more. So why temp us in the first place.

Trying 2 reason out & make sense of God & always asking why is hard.  The best example seams 2 b looking at a child & there view of life. Its limited & they depend on there parent , who has a better perspective on things, 2 help guide them, safely into adult understandings of the world around them.

Along the way there r a lot of Why's & but Mom & but Dad, but in the end we usually c they were right, because they saw things we could not understand at the time.

The Bible says we all c things through a dim & dirty glass lens now. but sometime in the future things will b made clearer.

So how can we know everything clearly without trusting that maybe he sees it clearer.

Trust is another issue in this life we have trouble understanding. We only trust in what we c & what can b proved as fact. Originally we were not created 2 think that way it was about "blind faith" but now our eyes r open.  Faith & trust r foreign concepts now, that make little 2 no seance, so why believe in them?

Its a personal journey 4 everyone 2 decide 4 themselves.

Its all very confusing & people have decided 2 believe what they want about it all but its mostly about trust, love, forgiveness, sacrifice, all of which go totally against our own natural instincts. So the big picture is about believing that only God can fix the problem that mankind is in.

That problem is being separated from our father God & creator. Now W/ all our "father" issues in life Its even harder & it becomes a lifelong journey 2 find him, if we r even trying 2 look in the first place.

There r a lot of distractions, as well as outright deceptions along that pathway, 2 try 2 keep us from ever knowing truth, but only God himself can help get us through it all.

If we believe there is a God , A greater power of total goodness why do we disregard the idea of him having an enemy who tries 2 keep us apart?

As humans we have trouble accepting or allowing anyone 2 tell us what 2 do, especially a far away ,out of touch, supernatural, being, who may b telling us things we don't want 2 hear or even things we totally disagree w/ now.

Personally I have tried many times 2 get away from all of it. Who needs the aggravation right?. Life is hard enough.  But something or "someone" keeps pushing 4 me 2 keep trying 2 seek out the truth, in all the chaos.  My question has always been If not a loving "father" than who would even try so hard? W/ so many options of truth out there the bigger question is who do we believe.? not just do we believe there is more.

 

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First of all, I fully admit I am not perfect. I am a sinner. I am also a Christian, who has accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. THAT SAID, I absolutely believe you can be gay and be a Christian. While I fully admit to not knowing every bit of the bible, I was raised Christian, was active in the church growing up, and love Jesus. 

Many Christians seem to ignore the guiding principle: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Who am I, as a sinner, to judge anybody else? Further, look at the story of Mary Magdalene, the alleged prostitute. While most others laughed at her, judged her, and disregarded her as a human being, Jesus washed her feet. Do you see the parallels here? I don't profess to know everything, but I know what Jesus has done for me in my life. I truly believe that Jesus is Love, and he Loves all. 

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It is quite simple.  This is something the religious authoritarians have lost along the way.

You are a Christian if you believe in Christ.

All of us are sinners.     Sinning doesn't exclude you.    Perhaps the most compelling passage in the Bible is Romas 3:21 (that whole chapter is quite relevant.

 

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 

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My parents' denomination (Anglican) recently decided to start allowing those priests who want to marry same-sex couples to do so.

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3 minutes ago, Elbs said:

My parents' denomination (Anglican) recently decided to start allowing those priests who want to marry same-sex couples to do so.

Which, at least in the US, has caused a schism in the church.    A more conservative faction has split off to oppose this.    The fun part is "who owns the building" the congregation (which split off) or the mother church in many cases.

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From a historical standpoint, the early Christian Church was open to gays. 

Jesus said traditional marriage was for those who could accept it.

“Not all men are able to do this, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are some men who are born eunuch. There are some men who have been made so by men. There are some men who have had themselves made that way because of the holy nation of heaven. The one who is able to do this, let him do it.” -- Matthew chapter 19

"Born eunuch" was an ancient euphemism for GAY.

Moreover, your sexual preference has nothing to do with following the principles of Christ's teachings... primarily love and humility.

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From a historical standpoint, the church was open to all who wanted.   The authoritarian exclusion of those whose sins are perceived to be contradictory to the popular belief is a relatively modern concept.      The Southern Baptist Convention (the US's second largest religious body), for example.    Largely liberal in their views for the first two centuries of its existence but was taken over by authoritarian factions in the late seventies.

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Never have I seen a religion that is as opinionated as Christianity. And never have I seen people that criticize and are as narrow-minded as some Christians. (Not all, Christians, but the ones I seem to find). Even the various Christian faiths are at each other's throats over which Christian religion is the "right" one.

Here's one of my Christian horror stories: Years ago I was taking care of a little girl (she was about 7, I think) whose mother was sick. It happened to be Halloween. I had her at my house and took her trick-or-treating before dinner and then to a Halloween party the next town over after dinner. I ran into a lady that our family knew who was a Pentecostal Christian of the worst kind. She knew that I took care of children and was horrified of the fact that someone would trust a single man to take care of their daughter. That entire evening at the event, she followed me around watching me like a hawk and throwing disgusting glances at me. "Hey, lady, why doesn't Jesus Christ think that I should babysit this little girl?" She was also a loudmouth, proud Christian who proclaimed her beliefs (and idiotic opinions) to me on a regular basis. I couldn't tell her off because her daughters took piano lessons from my mother and I didn't want Mom to lose students.

Now the other side of the story: I knew a Jewish family and was quite close to them. They would often ask me to stay at their house for a weekend and babysit their children (a boy and a girl) while they went on a weekend retreat. They never questioned my moral integrity or told me that I was unfit as a single man to take care of their children  They also never professed the Jesus didn't think I should take care of their children alone or that I should be married to a woman before being allowed--at the discretion of a wife--to take care of a child. (I should probably mention that my father's father went to Rabbinical school, which didn't hurt any with the Jewish family). I am not Jewish by religion and I certainly don't consider myself a Christian in the sense of "taking Jesus Christ as my personal savior." My grandmother taught Sunday school in a Presbyterian church and also led religious services at her house. She never condemned ANY religion and was always eager to study what other people believed and kept an open mind.

I wouldn't put too much power into Christians condemning gay people simply because of the closed-mindedness I have seen from them in the past. Everyone has a right to choose their lifestyle as long as it doesn't hurt others in the process.

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Historically as far as Jews go, if you're not Jewish, then their rules don't apply to you.    This comes in handy when you can use things like the sabbath goy (a non-Jew who performs things it would be illegal for a Jew to do).

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