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Transgendered - Why So Much Hate In The West?


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This guy describes an experience with some commentary and he brings up a great point in another video. Why is it that the west is the only place transgendered people are so hated in the modern day? During the best eras of US economy no one cared as much, many of the greats were raised as women oddly. But now something as simple and innocent as nail polish on a boy causes a ton of baseless outrage in the US while other cultures do not hate enough to even differentiate between different narrow labels of transgendered people.

This literally makes no sense, even cultures that are against sodomy and put gay men to death actually have transgendered and, in the modern age, don't attack them as much we do here. But here in the US not only do the majority WASPS attack transgendered, many other minorities do. Even a lot of atheists are extremely biased against transgendered (which defies logic). Many dark skinned people treat transgendered poorly and even physically attack them without provocation, and this is hypocrisy. Gay people shun transgendered a lot or even shun them, which is completely counterproductive.

What say you? Are we resisting change just for something to fight against or are we just a lost cause now?

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It's not just transgendered people. I can't speak to other western cultures but I can speak to the U.S I think it's caused less by masculinity or machismo and much more by misuse of religion. Time and again I see religious fanatics make statements like there is no such thing as transexual or transgender, that God made you a man so it doesn't matter what you look like or dress like you're a man. If hipocracy were money we'd be the wealthiest nation on earth and wouldn't have any national debt.

Hugs,

Freta

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Well I agree that the west isn't tolerant of transgender folks but neither are most places in the world. If anything the west is a far better place for transgender people than other places, with a few exceptions. Hating on the west is a popular thing nowadays although without it we wouldn't have the modern world, human rights, or the internet. Go to a middle eastern country and if you tell them you are transgender, they will kill you. As much as it saddens me that people are intolerant in the west, and although we do have civil rights issues for lgbt persons, it is still far from being the center of the worlds intolerance.

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Hate is there because the "transgendered", without full "change" expect the rest of us to accept the "transgendered thing", and make it viable and okay. It's YOUR thing. Do not expect the rest of the world to embrace it, encourage it and accept it.

Get the surgery. Get the hormone therapy. And, THEN pass yourself off as the other gender you were not born as.

Passing yourself off, pre-op, is foisting a LIE upon others, because you "can't afford the surgery". Oops. Not OUR problem, and don't expect other people to understand and go along with it. DO what you gotta' DO, but don't expect OTHERS to push you along.

Major gripe of mine. You say you're female, and you are TS or TG - pre-op or not - you are NOT being truthful. Most guys are looking for a bio female AB or DL, or POST-op. Truth rules here. And, if the lie is not working, you need to understand WHY.

No hate here, just knowledge and opinion. Take it from there...

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Guest Baby Rina

"THE MORE OPEN WE ARE, THE MORE ACCEPTED WE'LL BE, BUT WE NEED TO BE INTELLIGENT IN INFORMING A VANILLA WORLD. WE SPEND TOO MUCH TIME WORRYING ABOUT WHAT OTHERS MIGHT THINK ABOUT OUR CHOICE OF ABSORBENT UNDERWEAR. IT'S ONLY DIAPERS! LEGAL, MORAL, NON-FATTENING, AND A LEGITIMATE PRODUCT MANUFACTURED FOR A LEGITIMATE NEED. SIMPLE, REALLY..."

Ripped right out of your own signature and i find it a little hypocritical that you would come into a forum for Trans people looking for support from each other and berate us for being liars and expecting the rest of you to accept the 'transgendered thing'... while expecting others to become more embracing of the diapered life style they they don't support either.

And "Passing yourself off, pre-op' is foisting a lie upon others" that's a requirement before you can even get the surgery. To walk a mile in those other shoes and that other life to make sure that you can function that way because that surgery is irreversable its better that during that time they decide its not for them rather than 6 months down the road after the surgery decide they don't like it. Its not OUR problem that YOU can't understand the type of mental anguish that plagues some of us and makes us risk hell just to try to live a more normal life in our eyes.

I say I'm female, and I act like I'm female, i dress like I'm female and trust me honey... as ass like YOU would never find your way into my house or my bed to find out about any non standard equipment. You say most guys are looking for a bio female, and you make it sound like we go out of our way to hide the fact that we're not and lie to them to try and seduce them to be with us. I can't speak for every girl here but when i find one that i think i like and likes me back i tell them. If they really are the one to spend your life with it won't bother them as much as you think. Maybe YOU are just too small minded to think past the bedroom and into the soul of the person your spending your life with. That's not MY fault for wanting to have a rich and fufilling life on multiple levels.

And on the greater topic yea, i think a lot of the problem comes from relgious fanatics who pick the bits of the holy texts that they like and ignore the parts they don't like. As i started to transition at work i got a bit of gear grinding from some of the local bible thumpers who wanted to let me know that i was making the wrong decision and that i would spend an eternity in hell for my choices. After about 6 months of my living my life like I have been most of that has quieted whether or not they still keep me in thier prayers to eventually shake off the demon plaguing me I'll never know but most of them have quit coming into the store while i'm there, and thus my demon is gone... them.

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Hate is there because the "transgendered", without full "change" expect the rest of us to accept the "transgendered thing", and make it viable and okay. It's YOUR thing. Do not expect the rest of the world to embrace it, encourage it and accept it.

Get the surgery. Get the hormone therapy. And, THEN pass yourself off as the other gender you were not born as.

Passing yourself off, pre-op, is foisting a LIE upon others, because you "can't afford the surgery". Oops. Not OUR problem, and don't expect other people to understand and go along with it. DO what you gotta' DO, but don't expect OTHERS to push you along.

Major gripe of mine. You say you're female, and you are TS or TG - pre-op or not - you are NOT being truthful. Most guys are looking for a bio female AB or DL, or POST-op. Truth rules here. And, if the lie is not working, you need to understand WHY.

No hate here, just knowledge and opinion. Take it from there...

Baby Rina made a great point to your post here, several actually. Usually when I see an attitude like this it's because of a complete lack of understand of biology. Do you realize how similar the two genders are without any environmental influences? So similar in fact that every single trait we have considered as "masculine" or "feminine" is being reclassified by biologists. There are many people born looking like perfect females, down to the genitals, yet have male genetics and no mutations in the genes at all. There are females born with male genitals as well. Then there are the mid-genders, XXY and XYY chromosomes, which are a completely different story.

For all you know, your own wife could actually have male genes, and technically be male. You could have female genes and technically be female.

Genes are funny, they are not a description of what you will be or look like, they are just a template for cells, and nothing more. Taxonomists even gave up using skeletal structure to identify male and female of the human species because all skeletal traits have been discovered almost equal between the genders now. Anthropologists classify gender as the role that an organism serves for reproduction only, beyond that gender has no influence at all. Neurologists have actually found physical differences in the brain between straight people, gay people, and transgendered. Those with predominantly female traits as defined by society vary less than those with predominantly male traits as defined by society than the difference between a gay man and a straight man, which is even a smaller difference than between a gay man and a transgendered person. Science is a wonderful thing.

So you see, scientifically we have discovered that our entire social construct of gender is at best, wrong. Now again, why is it that the most advanced portion of the world also contains the highest amount of bigotry? Your whole point of "not being truthful" has scientifically been shown to be wrong.

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Well I agree that the west isn't tolerant of transgender folks but neither are most places in the world. If anything the west is a far better place for transgender people than other places, with a few exceptions. Hating on the west is a popular thing nowadays although without it we wouldn't have the modern world, human rights, or the internet. Go to a middle eastern country and if you tell them you are transgender, they will kill you. As much as it saddens me that people are intolerant in the west, and although we do have civil rights issues for lgbt persons, it is still far from being the center of the worlds intolerance.

Actually, and that's the strange irony, they won't. They will kill you for sodomy but not for behaving gay or even being transgendered. The religious people in the Middle East actually have a fear that transgendered can curse them. The Middle East is often called backwards, and that description fits really well. Transgendered there are considered above religious laws even.

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Hate is there because the "transgendered", without full "change" expect the rest of us to accept the "transgendered thing", and make it viable and okay. It's YOUR thing. Do not expect the rest of the world to embrace it, encourage it and accept it.

Get the surgery. Get the hormone therapy. And, THEN pass yourself off as the other gender you were not born as.

Passing yourself off, pre-op, is foisting a LIE upon others, because you "can't afford the surgery". Oops. Not OUR problem, and don't expect other people to understand and go along with it. DO what you gotta' DO, but don't expect OTHERS to push you along.

Major gripe of mine. You say you're female, and you are TS or TG - pre-op or not - you are NOT being truthful. Most guys are looking for a bio female AB or DL, or POST-op. Truth rules here. And, if the lie is not working, you need to understand WHY.

No hate here, just knowledge and opinion. Take it from there...

I'll take you at your word that you're not a hater. I completely agree that it's your opinion and I'll support your right to express it. I'll even agree you beleive it's based on knowledge but the evidence I see contradicts that.

I'm very honest and truthful. Don't beleive it? Check out my profile. My point is if you met me you would be meeting a woman. Just how would you determine what's between my legs? You'd probably be fixated on my brests like most men, that is unless you're not like most men. Ironically that would give us something in common :-). I know lots of female to male transexuals. Many don't have a penis but they have a good beard, a mans voice, a man's physique. Maybe everyone should just go naked below the waist because that's the only way you're ever going to weed out the haves and have nots. The real question here you seemed to have missed is "why would you care" You meet a woman on the street what does it matter if she has something extra between her legs because she doesn't have the money to have the surgury. You're not having intercourse with her.

Hugs,

Freta

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As far as the religion issue that has been raised.

Is being transgenered anti-Christian/ anti-religous. Not neccessarily, the book does say that our world has been fallen. And, mankind has REALLY been screwing around with nature the past hundred years or so. We have allowed industrial chemicals, artificial hormones, especially endocryne disrupters, and other toxins to leech into our ground water, our soil, and work its way up the food chain, right back to us. We have not been good stewards of the planet, and all manner of badness has resulted. It is extremely arrogant to claim, especially now that the sexes are clearly divided, that men are naturally masculine, and women are naturally feminine. Here is an example of what can happen when artificial hormones, industrial contaminates pollute the environment: http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/newscience/wildlife/fishfeminization.htm In this article, male fish were completely feminized by estrogen-like compounds. We are screwing around with life on a fundamental level, this is bound to have a few effects. I am honestly not surprised that religion has been used to suppress transgender concerns. They say that God does not make mistakes therefore no one can be a woman in a man's body or a woman in a man's body. They leave out that the earth is under a curse, literally as well as figuratively. So humans are not fish, and cannot be completely feminized by industrial contaminants and the like, but can we honestly say this has no effect, I think not. Humanity as a race needs to lay down the arrogant pretense that the human species is immune from the damage we have done to the environment.

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Well Kitten and other transgenders, I am certainly no tg, but you all have my support if that is what you so desire.

To answer the question as to why other oppressed people attack the transgenders is I think due to standard bullying psychology. When you are at elementary school, what do you do when you no longer want to get picked on anymore by the bully? You pick on the kid weaker than you to make yourself look "cooler". I am thinking these other groups are attempting to help their cause by distancing themselves from you to make themselves look less extreme, which is really self-destructive since we are all in this together. We are much more powerful if we, the oppressed, support each other. Together, we can defeat the bully whether you are transgender, gay/lesbian, of a different color other than white, female, and even AB/DL.

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I will respond because I ellicted some comment with my comments.

No, I'm not a hater. And, I'm not intolerant of transgenders. What I DID say is that there are those within that realm, as a for instance, that post a profile that say they are female - whether they feel female inside or you have a troll who is looking to be able to connect with women. The latter is just plain wrong.

What I am seeing is like with "gay pride", I'm getting gay this and gay that shoved down my throat. If you're gay, fine. Live the gay life, do the gay thing. I don't need it explained, and I don't have to embrace it or encourage it. And, I'm not going to fault you or attack you for it.

If you are "transgender", and feel like a female trapped in a male's body, that's fine, too. And, I don't need it explained to me what it's like, how it feels and how it affects a person's life. I understand it's tough. I understand it's not a choice. What I did say is that I don't feel it's right to say in a profile that one is a female, and NOT say, upfront, that a person is TG or MtFTG, for instance. I also said, that while I understand to go through surgery and the physiological change to become what one feels they are is expensive, and not easy to accomplish, if a person truly feels they are a female trapped in a male body, then in for a penny, in for a pound, and pursue the total change. I can't even imagine the trials and tribulations TGs face.

I'm married. If I was looking for a relationship with a MtFTG, knowing whom I'm dealing with would be as important as if I connected with a pre-op TG, thinking, as a straight male, I was dealing with a biological female - born that way, physically, with out any surgery or enhancements to make the outside match what the person feels or is inside.

Support? No problem. Encouragment? I certainly wouldn't put anyone down for pursuing what they need to pursue. It took ME a long, long time to become comfortable with MY "thing" of being a DL, and be at the place I'm at right now.

Anyone who attacks or bullies a TG is small-minded, and would most likely go after anyone else they are not comfortable with or don't understand. If it bothers you that much, you know, look the other way or ignore it. The old "there but for the Grace of God, go I" comes into play. We all have our own problems and issues. Why people want to make other people's issue an issue is beyond me.

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Guest Baby Rina

"I'm married. If I was looking for a relationship with a MtFTG, knowing whom I'm dealing with would be as important as if I connected with a pre-op TG, thinking, as a straight male, I was dealing with a biological female - born that way, physically, with out any surgery or enhancements to make the outside match what the person feels or is inside."

So... your still saying you are way to caught up with and concerned about the phsysical and whats unde rthe skirts than the spirtual and what's in the heart? You can with enough money to almost anything to the body but an ugly soul will remail ugly throughout. Time will wither and strain the shell but the spirit will remain ever bright right up untl it is extinguished and even then depending on your religious views it may continue to burn in the hearafter. Don't call me a liar or accuse me of being a troll because i list myself as F and don't acknowledge what i consider to be a birth defect.

"Why people want to make other people's issue an issue is beyond me."

That's exactly what you are doing right now. When i go out with my hair done nice, my face on, and a cute top like i do most days i look like any other girl in the crowd, when i speak i sound like any other girl in the crowd. Would you rather i wore a cerulean M on my breast to let everyone know that i'm Male so when they try to flirt with me like any other girl in the crowd they know i have male parts and therefore am not worthy of thier flirting like every other girl in the crowd?

Can't speak for everyone else but... while i might keep it calm and contained when i'm out in public... i am allowed to get as much pride on about things like getting my new female ID as i want in my own home and among my friends... the same as here you are posting in a LGBT FORUM don't be surprised when things are a bit more rainbow colored here, it's not like this post is sitting out in a DL primary board and we are in our corner of the site and doing our thing so ... shove off.

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I have to agree Baby Rina. Im just a crossdresser and an AB and do not for a second put myself as an expert in the TG area .But are you not supposed to live as a women /male for at least a year before hormones or surgery ? or is it just surgery ? .Whatever it is i do not think it is easy for anyone to go through this it is not a choice ,it is there and does not go away .Just like cding and diapers i have tried everything to purge this from my mind and body for 30 years ! ,

Now im finally at a point of accepptance and am for the first time starting to like myself and changing my outward appearence more to the female side .Am i TG im not sure but i will figure it out .My support for the community is there and if you have ever tried to stop wearing diapers and have failed then you kinda get the just of what this is about (just my opin ) but i know it goes deeper than that

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The Medical Standards Of Care require that persons being treated for Transgenderism begin living in the other gender full time for a period of at least one year before anything other than Therapy and Psychiatry may be entered into. That includes administration of hormones and application for any surgical treatments.

That rule isn't always followed to the letter, as each Medical Care Provider has the authority to alter their treatment based on their best judgement. Most often (but not always) a Transitioning person will begin some other treatments such as a MTF beginning electrolysis during that time-frame, but never is genital surgery permitted until after that year of 'Real Life Experience'.

I have discussed this with TCC in private and let me assure you that he is not a hater. He does have his opinions which I disagree with and on this particular subject but he is entitled to those, just as we are entitled to ours. I would not expect to have any problem living next door to him. He does point out that there is still a lack of clear landmarks in Transition, and a lack of legal definitions and Laws concerning this, which I find every bit as abysmal as he does.

It is up to each individual to self-identify here, and as long as they are being honest we have no problem with that. The site policy is to not allow harassment over any persons Gender as they perceive and state it. That does not mean that they have to agree with this policy, only that they must abide by it while they are here. If at Admin level we believe that a person is mis-stating their gender for nefarious purposes we reserve the right to take action to correct that. We have offered many "Gender Markers" for our members to choose from (including no gender) and we ask that you select he one most appropriate to you. We do that as a way for everyone to be able to express their gender as they wish to, especially since the range of allowed topics here does not really reach to the level of needing to know what is in the pants of another Member. Let's just hope there's a diaper under there when needed and let it go at that.

As to myself and me alone I choose to identify as TG because that is more closely aligned to who I am right now. There was a time when I lived and identified as 'Female' and during that time it would have been an appropriate 'Gender Marker' for me. That my Transition was cut short over non-Gender related reasons did change me, just as I was changed when that journey began for me many years ago. In this limbo of a life I could be right claiming a 'Female' gender still since I hope to someday be able to finish that journey, even though I have not had any physical alterations other than electrolysis. I know who I am and it's not Male even though I can be pretty good at being one when I want to.

As to those here who are Transitioning and are going to complete that journey, whether you have genital surgery or not, you should choose the Gender marker of who you are and not let anyone else's opinion bother you. You've got enough to worry about in what can be a very tough life and we support you in your journey to personal happiness in a life of being who you are without reserve. If someone renders a personal attack against you on this website whether gender-related or not, report this and we will act.

People have been banned over nor following our every rule, including the Gender-related ones, and if need be we will do that again. Please tread gently on this forum if you are not TG as we do consider it a special place for us. Save for this and the Incontinence forum you have the entire site as your playground and we ask that you enjoy it while leaving this one for us and our special issues.

Whew, that's a lot of words! But thanks for listening and understanding anyway!

Bettypooh

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Okay. I saw the topic, and didn't look at the forum. I responded to that. Sorry.

Not my balliwick, not my group of peeps. And, obviously, while I expressed what I feel is an issue within this issue, it was out of place. I won't do it again.

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I hope i did not offend either BettyPooh .Doing what i do and the issues that i have which are getting stronger all the time i just wanted to back up the community thats all

Yours respectfully Alexyxsis

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I hope i did not offend either BettyPooh .Doing what i do and the issues that i have which are getting stronger all the time i just wanted to back up the community thats all

Yours respectfully Alexyxsis

You're fine, showing support or even acceptance is never a bad thing for something innocent like this. ;) It's appreciated.

I will respond because I ellicted some comment with my comments.

No, I'm not a hater. And, I'm not intolerant of transgenders. What I DID say is that there are those within that realm, as a for instance, that post a profile that say they are female - whether they feel female inside or you have a troll who is looking to be able to connect with women. The latter is just plain wrong. ..... [reduced for space]

You really are missing the big picture of what gender is. It would kind of suck to be so closed minded and not enjoy life because anything opposing your own world view being seen as "shoved down my throat." The pretenders are inconsequential, there are those who also pretend to be black or asian for that same reason and it's the responsibility of people to be sure they aren't being taken for granted.

But here's what bothers me most about your views, you do not seem to have much love in your heart, since the physical state of a person is more important than their personality. Just keep in mind as you go through your day, your wife could be genetically male and never know it. You could be genetically female and never know it. Ponder that for a bit, and this is what scientists have discovered. If you were genetically female with male parts would it be lying to keep calling yourself male? If you went in for a DNA and blood work tomorrow and they told you later "looks like we're going to have to put on your license that you're female now because technically that's what you are." Would that bother you at all? You would have been lying, based on your logic, your entire life to that point, and if you did not accept the change you'd be lying from that point on, again based on your own logic.

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...

cerulean

...

On a smirky side note: This proves that you are really female inside; no male would have chosen that term to refer to blue. I bet you know what colours 'amarath' or 'chartreuse' are as well...

Without hitting on you: I like you, Sarina.

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On a smirky side note: This proves that you are really female inside; no male would have chosen that term to refer to blue. I bet you know what colours 'amarath' or 'chartreuse' are as well...

Without hitting on you: I like you, Sarina.

I can't speak for the former, but am I right in guessing the second one is

green? I only guess because of the drink

:P

And I'm going to have to agree with Kitten referring to tcc. Gender is more about brain chemistry and self-identity than the physical part. You're confusing 'sex' and 'gender'.

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I can't speak for the former, but am I right in guessing the second one is green? ...

Good guess, it's greenish yellow, like a tame version of 'Hi-Viz-Jacket-Green'; I think it actually takes its name from the liquor.

Amaranth is sort of a pale rosey purple - ish, a bit like the 'magenta' of a printer cartridge with less 'azure'. :thumbsup:

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I recently had a thought, what if the problem with trans here is actually caused by the mentality that women are somehow inferior and that going male to female is seen as insulting men? Considering the hatred is almost always focused on the MtF and not the many many FtM. If this is true it could be telling in our culture, since it would also mean that many females actually consider themselves as "less than" males. However it is a logical conclusion, one which may warrant more study. The idea of the women feeling threatened competitively has failed to be logical, unless there are far more men who care than there appears to be, which would require that more men being accepting and that's just not true.

I base this on the fact that GGs who are tolerant or even supportive tend to also be very strong women who know they are as capable as any men, and to say otherwise would anger them, rightfully so. The only ones that show any hatred or anger toward trans MtF are those who lack this strength of character and tend to become walking incubators without even considering a career or schooling. I have probably said this before, but I am so passable as a GG that even emergency room doctors are shocked when I inform them, and I have lived in women's shelters where other MtF (less passable) have also lived. So I have heard the talk "behind their backs."

Now, if you don't know Seattle's shelter system, this may seem like a small sampling to you, but really it's not. Consider all walks of life wind up in the shelters and you are sharing this space with more than 200 a day, all women in the shelters I was in. You slept in an area shared by an average of 40 women per night (different shelters as there are no 24 hour ones). I lived in these for 7 years solid, got to know over 2,000 women in detail, many details I wish I had never learned *shudder*. Just to put where I derive this idea from into perspective.

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Guest Baby Rina

i was just thinking that in the book it was the Scarlet letter not the red one so i figured that my lettter would need to also not be the same basic run of the mill blue. And as for colors i once got into an argument with a guy as to whether or not seafoam was a color, and whether or not the bathroom in the apartment i was renting was that color [is and was]

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Actually i have witnessed far more bigotry by cisgendered women in general that has absoultely nothing to do with religion, well unless you are willing to be honest and acknoweldge extreme feminism for what it is. Both the left and the right use people's fears and misconceptions to manipulate them. the left uses the term intolerant as if it has any actual bearing and the religious right screams hell at everyone with the same assumption that it has any actual bearing. When you realize how pathetic and hypocritical both sides are, you realize they are just two different methods at accomplishing the same goal of control. The simple truth is people don't like change and fear what they don't understand. Transgenderism is still a fairly new science and not everyone is at the same level of understanding or agreement on it's validity. There are those who are intelligent enough to live their own life with a differing opinion and then there are those who aren't intelligent enough and need to impose their view on others. This concept isn't unique or new to modern society but has been a thorn in civilization for ages. The extreme left and extreme right are two sides of the same coin and I've read more brain dead bigotry in this thread from some of the so called open minded crowd that I could've sworn you are from westboro baptist. When you live outside these extremes you realize how completely shit it all is. Do as you will and respect that others do not have to agree or disagree with you, regardless of what the "What" you do is.(Religion, science, fetish, orientation, it doesn't matter). I had a differing view of the transgendered community prior to getting to know a few and through the course of seeking knowledge and understanding I've learned a great deal. I left my preconceived notions and prejudices at the altar and decided to approach people as people and not as a label. I am not perfect and I have principles on which i stand that aren't the most popular, however, I will always strive to have an honest discussion with people and agree to disagree whenever possible.

Somewhere in all of this there is a depeche mode song that fits perfectly.

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