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The End Of Proposition 8!


Leilin

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Man there's so much I want to say but I don't want to get into any political or religious arguments. Suffice to say, even though I don't believe in the institution of marriage and feel like it's a ridiculous concept I likewise feel it's absurd to not allow a certain group of people to get married. Particularly given that the US offers a lot of financial benefit to people who are married via taxes and often employee benefits.

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I am actually appalled and shocked that this stupid thing even PASSED! Since California is such a (f*ckedup) liberal state, I figured that something like this would have died in the elections.

personally, I don't think the "state' should have any say as to who Marries who, it's a personal choice. If 2 people care and love each other enough to ant to make that kind of commitment, who the hell care what gender they are? GAD!

Anyways, just my 2 cents, congrats to the gay community and others who are affected by this.

this is just something that should have never happened. Now to get the rest of the government BS out of out personal lives and bedrooms :P

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We had a discussion earlier in another thread about whether rights of the state are so different from the rights of the individual, and this is precisely why, and precisely what federal courts are designed to do: To protect the individual and the minority when the legislature is used as a flail to beat them down with the voice of the majority.

California isn't as Liberal as many Conservatives think. Outside of San Francisco (not even the entire Bay Area), Los Angeles (the city, not the entire metropolitan area), and several other pockets of liberal interestingness (which do include Santa Cruz, and the other proper cities but not include, despite popular opinion, even many areas in Berkeley), rural California is, like many other rural areas, highly Conservative. It just happens that those few (large) pockets of Liberal nature encompass a large amount of the state's population. However, a large amount of that population is youth who are less able to get out and vote than your average adult professional.

Essentially, as in most things, it is a more complicated situation than can be placed on a bumper sticker. All you have to do to realize that California is not some uberliberal paradise is go to Boulder Creek (in the bay area), Tracy (Sacramento), any northern rural city other than seaside, or Newport Beach.

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I am upset of how it was stopped. The voters should have been the ones to stop it. There are many reasons for this, the most important one is that it shows voters have not learned to be tolerant. So ... you can't trust anyone in that state at all, since the majority had to be overruled. I'd prefer to know where the majority of people are prejudice, and that's what prop-8 was, a sure sign that California was behind the times. Now we may never know when the majority in CA get a clue.

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I am upset of how it was stopped. The voters should have been the ones to stop it. There are many reasons for this, the most important one is that it shows voters have not learned to be tolerant. So ... you can't trust anyone in that state at all, since the majority had to be overruled. I'd prefer to know where the majority of people are prejudice, and that's what prop-8 was, a sure sign that California was behind the times. Now we may never know when the majority in CA get a clue.

You need to look up Tyranny of the Majority and, until you understand why the courts exist, probably refrain from posting on this topic, as you are ignorant of how our system works and is designed to work.

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I am upset of how it was stopped. The voters should have been the ones to stop it. There are many reasons for this, the most important one is that it shows voters have not learned to be tolerant. So ... you can't trust anyone in that state at all, since the majority had to be overruled. I'd prefer to know where the majority of people are prejudice, and that's what prop-8 was, a sure sign that California was behind the times. Now we may never know when the majority in CA get a clue.

They are not necessarily prejudice, they just fell for the rhetoric. If I remember right, the churches led an impressive compaign for Prop 8 (Groan, religious institions vex me). In the end, it was a pretty close battle.

So Leilin, Calfornia does not have mail-in ballots? In the state of washington, we have mail-in ballots. I have only been to a voting booth twice. All other times, I have used mail-in ballots. They are so convenient.

It looks like we will also have legalization of same-sex marriage here in Washington without a vote by the people. We could have had a referendum on it, but there were never enough signatures or enough state senators.

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I didn't vote on this...if I remember. Since I moved, my voting district has been all screwed up :blush: anyways, I remember tis issue, and as with everything that someone thinks is important, there was a lot of fear campaigning etc. Fear that it would threaten the 'sanctity' of marriage and the whole institution etc blah blah blah.

As you know, the current "definition" of marriage is between a man and woman. To me this is a petty detail, and marriage is a promise and 'contract' if you will between 2 people who care and love one another to the point that they wish to spend their lives together etc. Who cares about the gender?

I'm willing to bet that the whole man & woman only thing was created by the Church. That way you have off spring to bring into the church and help it continue to grow and provide income and "pass the word" and 'grow' the religion, and along with that bring in more money which equates to more power etc.

Gay couples don't produce children...there for are essentially of no use to the power and control population who always want more more more.

I think this is also why Catholics have so many children and they treasure the birth process and 'self pleasuring' is frowned upon. Why are there so many people in catholic based countries...places that cannot take care of their population....IE Mexico. So they spill over into the US and everywhere else, bringing their B/S with them.

All of this of coarse was created centuries ago, back when (or may be before) they started printing pages of the Bible and other documents and people started to read. Prior to that everything of importance was an oral tradition, and only Monks and Church higher ups were educated and knew how to read.

I know this is a tangled mess, which it is in reality as well. This is centuries old thinking that really needs to be challenged and exposed and done away with because it has become VERY destructive.

Anyways, so yeah...Congrats and everything :thumbsup:

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This is the problem with this country, if your not anti gay you must be anti Bible. Kinda sounds black and white to me. I would like to believe nothing has to be this way. Sure the first settlers came to the Americas because of religous repression. The forfathers wrote we will have freedom of religion. The context that it was written was rather freedom of expressing christianity, not anything else. Years later we were burning witches for thier beliefs. My point is, the US is suposed to be a free country, for us to have diverse beliefs and be nieghbors. I agree we dont need any laws telling us who we cant marry, and the catholic people can live next door so long as thier beliefs dont allow them to come through my front door with an ax.(I am not gay, and Im not anti gay)

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You need to look up Tyranny of the Majority and, until you understand why the courts exist, probably refrain from posting on this topic, as you are ignorant of how our system works and is designed to work.

However, it doesn't help when deciding where to move or who to trust. Now I cannot trust anyone from California for the rest of my life, which sucks. Who knows when that state will grow up, we have no idea. The last marker we have is that the majority are prejudice and/or imbiciles, which is not a good type of person to know or trust in any situation.

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However, it doesn't help when deciding where to move or who to trust. Now I cannot trust anyone from California for the rest of my life, which sucks. Who knows when that state will grow up, we have no idea. The last marker we have is that the majority are prejudice and/or imbiciles, which is not a good type of person to know or trust in any situation.

That sounded very puerile, illogical, and atrociously judgemental.

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However, it doesn't help when deciding where to move or who to trust. Now I cannot trust anyone from California for the rest of my life, which sucks. Who knows when that state will grow up, we have no idea. The last marker we have is that the majority are prejudice and/or imbiciles, which is not a good type of person to know or trust in any situation.

The prejudicial nature of that statement is humorously ironic.

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We had a discussion earlier in another thread about whether rights of the state are so different from the rights of the individual, and this is precisely why, and precisely what federal courts are designed to do: To protect the individual and the minority when the legislature is used as a flail to beat them down with the voice of the majority....

Leilin, as irascable as you can sometimes be, you also have an uncanny ability to be spot-on sometimes. YES THIS, a thousand time over! The US is not a democracy, it is a Democratic Republic where a balance should be achieved between what the people seem to want versus what seems to be best for all people. Just like diapers in a relationship how well this works depends on keeping everything in balance ;)

They are not necessarily prejudiced, they just fell for the rhetoric. If I remember right, the churches led an impressive compaign for Prop 8 (Groan, religious institions vex me). In the end, it was a pretty close battle....

Sadly this will always be a problem with a Democratic Republic. It is incumbent on the people to be educated well enough to see truth beyond rhetoric, and that is why we strive to make public eduacation fully available to all citizens. We, as a people, must demand that all concepts be proven as good and valid before we allow them to be applied as law.

And really, beyond that aspect, what argument based in truth and good can be made against allowing two people who desire marriage to have it in equality to anyone else who is married or desires that for themselves? If marriage for some be a good thing, marriage for all must also be a good thing. If mariage for some not be good, then marriage for all must follow- it cannot be both ways at the same time.

I don't care what feels good to you or me, what seems right to you or me, or about how any others are in those matters. I want the base truth, in all it's naked glory; for it can and will overcome rhetoric, misconception, and evil. Truth can hurt deeply, but avoiding it only closes the door to personal and wholesale betterment, which should be everyone's goal :)

Bettypooh

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