The Invouluntarily Incontinent Point Of View......

[allen476]

For awhile now I have been reading about those who wish to become incontinent. While I am not saying that you should or shouldn't try the 12 month program and make a very life altering decision, I would like those that are thinking about it to read about what being truly incontinent means. A week in the life of someone that is where you want to be, if I dare say.

To start, a little background on me. I shoveled some wet heavy snow one fine January day here in NY. I was finished and back in the house when my back felt like it was on fire. Took a shower, took some tylenol, and then retreated to the bedroom. All was better 2 days later. Then about a week later, the pain came back and I noticed some parts of my leg were numb to the touch. For about 7 months I worked through it while the pain subsided and the only symptom was the numb spot. Then one day in August I had an exceptionally brutal day at work. That night my back wasn't bothering me but something felt weird. I went to bed as normal but was woken up by the strange feeling of being wet. I had just wet the bed for the first time in my life. Didn't think anything of it and cleaned up the mess. Next night, the same thing happened. The day after that, I wet myself while getting ready for work. I called in sick so that I could call the doctor's office. She did get me in that early afternoon and referred me immediately to a urologist and suggested that I should "get some protection" in the mean time. Went that afternoon to the urologist, and had some really fun tests that saw Mr. Happy get stuff shoved up him that were either negative or inconclusive. He scheduled me for more tests that had to be done in the hospital. None of these tests showed anything.

So here we are, one year after the initial incident, I am wearing diapers 24/7 until I can find out what is causing my incontinence. This next year had me to 2 other urologists, a shrink, and a neurologist. Still nothing. By the middle of the third year, my back pain returned. It had gotten to the point that I could not walk through a store without having to sit down to rest my back. Back to the doctors I go and she has an MRI done on my back. I went a week later to get the results and am shocked by the news. I have a ruptured disc at L5-S1 and a herniated disc at L4-L5 both with nerve root compression. Basically the cause of my incontinence has been found.

So what does my background have anything to do with this? Well I want you to think about my situation and what you are going to put yourself through.

Are you ready for this? Financially, emotionally, physically.

Financially are you able to buy diapers. I use anywhere from 4-8 pullups a day along with 3 abena xplus diapers. Now doing the math, that can be anywhere from a low of $7.50 a day to $12.00 a day just in diapers. Now lets add in rash creme, diaper creme, wipes, and a couple of odds and ends that I have probably forgot and that tacks on an additional $1.00 a day. So at the time of this writing, can you afford $59.50 to $91 a week for this. And if you lose your job are you going to be able to afford it for at least one year with only unemployment payments. There were times when I was unemployed and I had to make a tough choice between food and diapers. And remember that I have to have them, I don't have a choice.

Emotionally can you deal with a lot of different situations that you would not rather have someone know that you are incontinent. How are you going to tell your family? I know how and when you are going to tell them, the first time you have an accident in front of them. How are you going to explain it to them? Does your SO or wife/husband know? What do they think about your desire? Are they going to be there 20+ years later to help you? More than likely they aren't going to be on board with it in the AB/DL aspect, but would not run away screaming either. You will have to come up with a story about slowly losing control (now re-read my background above again about testing). And if you are single, dating is going to be tough. While most will tell you that they are fine with it, they aren't going to be calling you again either. While some relationships can endure, many will fall apart.

Have you thought about being out in public? Are you prepared for the embarrassing accident in the middle of the store, mall, movie theater, etc.? Are you ready to carry around a diaper bag every where you go? I have to carry a backpack that has 4-6 pullups, an abena, a change of clothes, cremes, wipes, and plastic bags to put the soiled diaper in. If the store is busy, then many that come in and out of the bathroom know what I am doing. When I have gone shopping, I have had my diaper bag searched. I have had to buy clothes unexpectedly at a store because my diaper leaked again. I have had rude and insensitive comments when buying diapers and from people that have seen my diaper sticking out above my waistband. I have had comments about poopy diapers as well that weren't very nice.

Work is a little tougher to deal with as well. Many will know about your diapers and be nice to your face about it but are not so nice when you aren't there.

Physically can you deal with the unexpected surge in laundry? The 2am changing of your bed because you had too much to drink? Having to rinse out plastic pants daily? I have 2 pairs of plastic pants that I have to rinse out daily along with 1 additional load of laundry a week that I have to do. Sheets get washed at least weekly but are usually every 3-4 days. And remember that I have been doing this awhile and when this all began, I was washing sheets and clothes daily. I have got leaks under control fairly well but there is the accident that happens. Then there is having to clean furniture, carpeting, and bedding because you leaked. Are you ready to throw out your Saturday night plans because you have to spend some time cleaning up because you "forgot" to change? How are you planning on dealing with diaper rash? I can tell you that it is very painful and doesn't go away fast.

So go ahead and go on the 12 month program. I am not going to stop you. I would like you too think about the flip side of it. While the desire of incontinence might be strong, I would suggest to wear 24/7 for at least 3 years before doing anything else. I want you to do everything as normal except you pee and poop in your diaper. Then go to your parents house ( and friends houses) and use only your diapers. I want you to poop in front of them. I want you to have an accident in front of them. I want you go to a crowded store and poop your diaper in the furthest possible point away from the bathrooms. See if you can make it to the bathroom without some of the poop coming out. I want you to go out for a nice romantic night with your SO and have to go home in the middle of it because you leaked out on your clothes. I want you to go into your bosses office and poop in front of him while asking him a question. I want you to have an accident in front of your co-workers. I want you to hear all of the taunts, comments, and rudeness that goes with this. I want you to take 6 months of the 3 years and have to decide every other week if you are going to buy food or diapers.

So in the end you have a choice. Either stay in control and wear diapers, even 24/7 if that makes you happy. Or you can lose control and possibly find out what I just told you. It is your choice but I beg you to think about it.

I know that this will probably either get me banned or flamed. I would like to see it pinned below the 12 month program post but know that there is only a slim chance of that happening. If you are truly incontinent and have something to add, please feel free.

Allen

[Jabez]

You have good advice... but most anyone who wants to become incontinent isn't going to take your word for it. The only way they will know is to find out the hard way.

[InconJane]

Bravo Allen,

I'm not going to flame you. I became incontinent 5 years ago, also through a spinal injury (dirtbike accident not shovelling snow), and have to wear 24/7 since.

Fortunately I have a lot of family support both financially and emotionally, as because they all either saw me when I had my accident or in the hospital for the long months afterwards, they understand that I don't have bladder or bowel control. Friends though are a different story. Going through something like this, and being incontinent does show you who your real friends are. People that stick by you through embarrassing situations and stick up for you are gold. Unfortunately, too many people you think are your friends will abandon you when they think that you have embarrassed them by leaking (either pee or poop) in public.

Whilst (after 5 years) I am coming to terms with my need to be in diapers 24/7, it is definitely something I would rather not have to deal with. Even if you want to wear 24/7 and use your diapers as you wish, it is still better to have control than to not have control.

Like Allen says, if you are considering voluntarily becoming incontinent, think very carefully about it first.

Jane

[Creepymouse]

I understand the need to dissuade people from making a CHOICE to take upon themselves what you received WITHOUT a choice, but if you want us to keep our comments out of the Incontinence - Medical section, perhaps a bit of understanding should be taken to posting in the Desires forum.

Just because you had to deal with getting a cold shower when you didn't want one, doesn't mean that I should avoid having one if I want one.

[Jabez]

I understand the need to dissuade people from making a CHOICE to take upon themselves what you received WITHOUT a choice, but if you want us to keep our comments out of the Incontinence - Medical section, perhaps a bit of understanding should be taken to posting in the Desires forum.

Just because you had to deal with getting a cold shower when you didn't want one, doesn't mean that I should avoid having one if I want one.

I don't think it's a lack of understanding on his part. He just wants people to think about all aspects of being incontinent before they make such a life-altering decision. He mentions a lot of things that most people don't give any consideration to before making such a decision. But different people handle different matters differently. And I don't think he was insensitive to anyone else's opinions.

[nitrous]

Jane and Allen,

Thanks for posting this post. I hope those that do read this post will finally get tehir heads out of their asses and realize that they have to look at the real life nightmare their fantasies will encur uppon them. I wish you guys the best of luck in your continueing struggle. I hope Doctors can one day cure you of your afflictions. Oh and anyone else who is considering becoming incontinent after reading that I have something to say to you YOU'RE A FUCKING DUMBASS!!!

[XyXy]

Boo freaking hoo. I'm sorry, but I feel like providing some balance here. You've been dealing with incontinence for 1 whole year? And it bothers you so much that you go to a diaper fetish website in the "incontinence desires" section to warn them how bad it is? I'm sorry, but it just seems fishy and wrong. It's like a "straight" guy going onto a gay website and telling them about the dangers of being gay. It just doesn't jive with me. Look, I've been dealing with urinary incontinence since 2002 and wearing diapers since around 2005. I likely go through most of the same routines as you. All of my friends/family and many co-workers know. I do not advertise it, but if the issue comes up, I am simply open and honest about it, just as if I had any other disability. Unlike you, I admit to liking diapers. Not necessarily to my friends/family, but here I will admit it freely. I do not think that I would be here if I did not like them. I'd probably be on some lame Depends website or something. I think that diapers are awesome, even after all this time. They keep me dry, and they feel good. The nature of my incontinence causes me great pain at times due to blockage and a hyperactive bladder, so my kidneys hurt often, but otherwise, I am as happy as a fish in water. After a few tries, I even found a lover who is accepting and knowledgeable about my condition. I'm here to tell you that you can have your incontinence and enjoy it too. Yeah, some days are rough, but overall it is not something I would try and steer others away from. Especially if they could have it without the pain that I often experience.

I am involuntarily incontinent, and have totally accepted and embraced my lot in life. You can cry about it, or you can make the most of it. Certainly if I can enjoy it, somebody who comes to it voluntarily could also enjoy it. If they don't like it, over time, they have the choice of reversing course, and will most likely return to normal. So why waste time trying to scare people away from something that they are obviously passionate about? For all you who desire incontinence, I say go for it, and take it however fast or slow you want. You don't have to jump into it head first and pee and poo yourself all the time. You can just pee, or just wear them dry. You can wear them whenever you want, at night, during the day, or maybe only after you get home from work. This is your only life, and here is something that brings you great pleasure, so why not enjoy it? Just try to keep a broad perspective so that you can notice if it is causing you unhappiness in other ways. The goal is to find a way of living that makes you happy, and that you will not regret when you look back from your deathbed. You can listen to any number of opinions, or other people's experience, but they will not necessarily apply to you and your particular circumstances. Some incontinent people hate their lives and commit suicide. Some accept and actually love their lives, such as myself. I don't see myself as a victim, even though some think that I should. I was nearly beaten to death, which caused the injury in the first place. You see, I could identify with the victim mentality, and spend my whole life moping around, or I can just accept things for how they are, and look for ways to make it better. When I refuse to identify as a victim, or as a sufferer, what I find is that there are some very pleasant aspects of being incontinent. There is the physical pleasure of having a soft, warm tight plushy underwear all the time. It's like having your happy bits getting a nice hug all day. Then there is the pleasure of not having to run to the bathroom every 10 minutes, and being able to sit through a whole movie. Even many of my continent friends cannot make it through a movie, and I feel like they are the ones who have it bad, not me. Finally, there is also the pleasure of being different. Because of my condition, I am not normal, and it makes me glad that I am not just another brick in the wall. I get to experience a very unique life, and as a result, I have a more interesting perspective on life.

I have a friend who is dying of brain cancer. When I think of him, I think that my condition is no worse than having to wear glasses. Even the most incontinent amongst us doesn't really have it that bad, all things else equal. So we wear diapers and squirt in our pants instead of a toilet. Every freaking baby does the same thing, and you rarely hear them complain about it. It's the parents, and the cultural conditioning that has the real problem with it. If we succumb to this cultural shame, then I imagine it would suck 100 times worse. But why should we allow the majority opinion affect us so greatly? I don't, and nobody has treated me any worse because of it. I can take a joke here and there from friends and family, because they are not malicious. While we don't have license to push our condition upon others in any way, we should also not have to treat it as our shameful dark secret.

I think that the real reason there is shame associated with incontinence is because the same organ that is dysfunctional is also the sex organ. Sex has a long history of secretiveness and of being taboo. Add to the fact that some people wear diapers purely for sexual reasons, and there is a great reason for confusion, embarrassment and shame for wearing diapers. But really, a more enlightened society would not even be phased by the issue, be it incontinence or fetish. It just shows how close we still are to monkeys. I for one feel that I have transcended the cultural conditioning, and have found a happy and peaceful way to live where I don't judge, and for the most part am not judged.

I may have the opportunity this year to undergo surgery for my condition. It's not 100% sure if it will work, but most likely it will improve, and my incontinence will be reduced. Mostly I am getting the surgery to reduce the pain, and remove the blockage. If it wasn't for that, I would quite honestly be happy to go along for years in diapers. In fact, there is a small to moderate chance that the surgery will worsen my incontinence. The doctor is more worried about my possible future incontinence than I am! I know after this many years that I can live with thick waterproof underwear. That's not such a big deal. Most days I rather enjoy them. I don't ever feel the need to make myself feel better by telling others how bad it is. That would be dishonest and rather pathetic. If somebody wants to try something out that's not necessarily designed for them, who are we to try and dissuade them? Be it somebody with perfect vision who wants to wear glasses, a boy who wants to wear girls clothing, an ambulatory person who wants to use crutches, or a free person who wants to put themselves into bondage! I say go for it, you only live once, and NOBODY knows how best to live this life.

Oh, and nitrous, is that kind of language really necessary? You are of course entitled to whatever opinion you wish, but you are being quite judgmental and rude here.

[Bettypooh]

Please note that while we're pretty lenient about where you post, the incontinence forum is a support forum for the incontinent, and for nothing else . Please do not post messages there addressed to or about those who are desiring incontinence, or for any other use except for asking them realistic questions in an effort to learn about how they deal with this issue in their lives. Also remember that most people on the incontinence forum are not that way by desire or choice- please respect their position as we do your own. Thanks for your understanding.

Lesson over for today, now out to the playground with y'all

Bettypooh

[Zander]

Obviously the below is not aimed at those who are already incontinent.

I just don't understand why any sane person would purposely want to break their body, potentially in an irrevocable way, to indulge what is frankly a fantasy for them. It seems to me to be behaviour that demonstrates an inability to separate fantasy from reality - where what was once a harmless fantasy is now being taken too far into a harmful reality for the person involved (and likely others they interact with).

If people are actually considering voluntarily becoming incontinent, rather than merely fantasising about it, I would say its is definitely time they sought professional help from a qualified therapist and/or psychologist. At a minimum they should discus their desires with someone who is able to asses their mental state and preparation for such an undertaking and advise them accordingly. They may not change the patients mind, but the process would at least help ensure a level of information and support would be available.

I'm sure there are many people out there who engage in rape fantasies, but bar a few sociopathic exceptions they are able to keep those fantasies under control and realise the distinction. The same principal applies to addiction - the odd drink every now and again is fine, but becoming obsessed with it so much that you cause long term harm to yourself and others is not something anyone should be doing. For people who can't control and manage their desires, we have processes in place to detect and support you before it gets to the stage where you cause harm to themselves and others. These systems fail because people are unaware of them unwilling to engage them. Do not make the same mistake.

Considering such a drastic change to your life suggests you have deeper mental health issues which, if addressed properly, would help you far more and prevent you causing harm to yourself and others.

One final note:

If somebody wants to try something out that's not necessarily designed for them, who are we to try and dissuade them? Be it somebody with perfect vision who wants to wear glasses, a boy who wants to wear girls clothing, an ambulatory person who wants to use crutches, or a free person who wants to put themselves into bondage! I say go for it, you only live once, and NOBODY knows how best to live this life.

The point here is that it's potentially an irreversible change or one with a long term impact. All your examples are reversible things which can be backed-out from in a short time-frame and do no have long lasting physical consequences. If you'd used an example like "why not let people cut off their arms off because they have a thing for feeling dependent?" you'd be a lot nearer the mark. I'd still say people seriously considering such extreme actions are in need of mental healthcare facilities.

[Creepymouse]

I understand Betty, and I apologize for attempting to do your moderator job ^.^ I just get tired of the fact that there are more posts in the 'You guys just need to stop fantasizing' topics than the ones that fit the "Incontinence - Desires" name of the forum. That sorta feels like someone popping in on a breast fetish subforum and saying "You all need to stop wanting implants, I have big tits and I hate them, they make my back hurt and I want to cut them off." The OP's experience as an involuntary victim of a physical condition is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT from my experience as a willing 'victim'.

And is it just me or do the people who speak out most strongly, like the OP, usually need to learn better management of their condition?

4-8 pullups a day along with 3 abena xplus diapers.

I've BEEN 24/7 for MONTHS...and even with a reasonable liquid intake, I still made do with 2 Abena X-Plus a day (with or without booster if I felt it was needed), sometimes 3 if there was an abnormal amount of wetness, plus cloth for nights.

The 2am changing of your bed because you had too much to drink? ...when this all began, I was washing sheets and clothes daily. ...Are you ready to throw out your Saturday night plans because you have to spend some time cleaning up because you "forgot" to change?

Cloth night diapers add to the laundry needs, but I was able to do 2 extra loads a week, one wednesday night, one saturday night, and never needed to do 'extra' laundry because of 'accidents', because I know exactly how much I drank and can add more capacity to suit. Yes, occasionally a diaper will malfunction, but that is RARE. 'Forgot' to change? Really...you can't feel that you're wet and need to change? I know I seriously need a fresh diaper LONG before it leaks. This is what we call 'incontinence management.'

I'll mention the one time I REALLY had a problem, and it wasn't really because of my diaper so much as the circumstances. I was already pretty wet after a long day at work, and had to walk home. Wife had the car and was out of town temporarily. She had said she'd be home around 6, and it was 5:30 when I got there. She had locked the door for the first time in six months, and SHE HAD MY KEYS! I was already soaked, but still okay for a little while, so I sat on the porch and waited for her. 6 rolled around and I was starting to leak. 7 came and went (and I just went ) then 8. It was dark and freezing out, and I was leaking too badly to toddle over to the manager to borrow a spare key. So I waited. She finally got home around 8:30, and I was a bit of a mess. Even so, I showered and tossed those jeans in the diaper pail and I was fine. I was more upset about the cold than the wet, and the whole situation could have been avoided if she'd told me she was locking the door. I could have changed on the porch if I had a spare with me, but I kept my changing supplies in my locker at work and in the bedroom at home, so I rarely needed a changing bag.

I bought my diapers in bulk and had them shipped in monthly supplies, but I spent 6 months as 'functionally incontinent' as I possibly could. I leaked during changes, while drying from a shower, while making love (mommy thought that was fun ), while walking and regardless of whether I knew a leak was brewing. It wasn't bad, because I knew it was what I wanted. I was PREPARED for the changes I'd have to make. When we suddenly got carjacked by mommy's school loans for $500 a month, I *had* to look at my priorities and decide pulling out of my training was more important. There was much of my time that required careful budgeting, and we DID have to choose diapers over extra groceries on occasion.

The bottom line is: We each have something we don't want. You want your continence back, I want mine gone. Some small chested girls want big boobs, and vice versa. Some men want to be women and vice versa. Some blondes want to be brunettes and vice versa. (I realize they're not perfect analogies but it isn't important.)

P.S. - What I really want isn't actually incontinence in a clinical sense I think. What I've wanted was to have the ability to hold it, but only if I am consciously trying. I don't really want to 'dribble' all the time, but for my bladder to fill normally and automatically empty when it gets uncomfortable. This is how I figure most young children really are. If only hypnosis delivered what it promises, it would be easy. There's a story where the guy gets 'fixed' with a mechanical urethral stent that causes him to wet only when his bladder is full to a certain pressure, that would be ideal, and perhaps a good solution for some truly incontinent people, they could get a warning signal say 10-20% before the release, which would allow a semblance of continence.

[XyXy]

Bettypooh, I'm seriously confused who this post is directed towards? It sounds like you thought this was on the main Incontinence board (not desires section), when actually it was on the desires section. The incontinence-desires section cannot be directed "for the incontinent, and for nothing else". This is a case of exactly the opposite of what you describe. An incon came into the desires section and attempted to proselytize people away from incontinence. I just wanted clarification, because I could not pinpoint who exactly your post was directed towards, and the lesson is unclear. I hope that it was not directed towards me. Could you clarify? Thanks.

Please note that while we're pretty lenient about where you post, the incontinence forum is a support forum for the incontinent, and for nothing else . Please do not post messages there addressed to or about those who are desiring incontinence, or for any other use except for asking them realistic questions in an effort to learn about how they deal with this issue in their lives. Also remember that most people on the incontinence forum are not that way by desire or choice- please respect their position as we do your own. Thanks for your understanding.

Lesson over for today, now out to the playground with y'all

Bettypooh

[allen476]

Boo freaking hoo. I'm sorry, but I feel like providing some balance here. You've been dealing with incontinence for 1 whole year? And it bothers you so much that you go to a diaper fetish website in the "incontinence desires" section to warn them how bad it is? I'm sorry, but it just seems fishy and wrong. It's like a "straight" guy going onto a gay website and telling them about the dangers of being gay. It just doesn't jive with me.

I have been wearing for over 3 years, and not warn how bad it is but rather give insight as to what to expect and to think about. Many that have been posting are young and not thinking their whole decision through. My post was to make those that think that incontinence would be "something fun to do" think about the long term consequences and that there are ways to be happy without changing your body. That is why I asked for others to contribute to that as well.

Look, I've been dealing with urinary incontinence since 2002 and wearing diapers since around 2005. I likely go through most of the same routines as you. All of my friends/family and many co-workers know. I do not advertise it, but if the issue comes up, I am simply open and honest about it, just as if I had any other disability. Unlike you, I admit to liking diapers. Not necessarily to my friends/family, but here I will admit it freely. I do not think that I would be here if I did not like them. I'd probably be on some lame Depends website or something. I think that diapers are awesome, even after all this time. They keep me dry, and they feel good.

My whole family knows. Most of my friends know. I tell my supervisors at work just because I do need to change at bad times. And I approach it the same way you do, I tell people the truth when confronted. As to liking diapers, I am at the point that I am coming around on liking them in so much as they offer the most freedom as to need. When I first started wearing diapers, I hated them. But as time marched on and a solution to my incontinence wasn't likely to happen, I sought out websites that could help me deal with the feelings I was having. I agree that most websites out there, Depends included, are pretty lame. They don't help you with having to adjust mentally. I came to DD in order to explore why there are those that like/love diapers and maybe finding a coping strategy. Ironically, this website has given me more help than any other as far as coping goes and has help me deal with trying to like them.

And is it just me or do the people who speak out most strongly, like the OP, usually need to learn better management of their condition? I've BEEN 24/7 for MONTHS...and even with a reasonable liquid intake, I still made do with 2 Abena X-Plus a day (with or without booster if I felt it was needed), sometimes 3 if there was an abnormal amount of wetness, plus cloth for nights.

I have it managed pretty well, thanks. However "leaks happen". As far as usage, I can't use cloth (and I have tried, believe me, I have tried), I am a heavy wetter to begin with and due to where I work, I have to keep fluids in me due to the environment (hot). Furthermore since I am bladder and bowel incontinent, I have many times where I just changed and will have to go change again because my bowels weren't in perfect sync with my changing. To give you an idea with how many in a day.... 1 Abena when I get home from work. Change into another when I go to bed. Change into another Abena when I get up and after my shower. Wear that Abena to work and change into pull-up when I get to work. Then anywhere from 3-6 more pull ups while at work and a fresh pull up just before leaving work to come home.

The bottom line is: We each have something we don't want. You want your continence back, I want mine gone. Some small chested girls want big boobs, and vice versa. Some men want to be women and vice versa. Some blondes want to be brunettes and vice versa. (I realize they're not perfect analogies but it isn't important.)

P.S. - What I really want isn't actually incontinence in a clinical sense I think. What I've wanted was to have the ability to hold it, but only if I am consciously trying. I don't really want to 'dribble' all the time, but for my bladder to fill normally and automatically empty when it gets uncomfortable. This is how I figure most young children really are. If only hypnosis delivered what it promises, it would be easy. There's a story where the guy gets 'fixed' with a mechanical urethral stent that causes him to wet only when his bladder is full to a certain pressure, that would be ideal, and perhaps a good solution for some truly incontinent people, they could get a warning signal say 10-20% before the release, which would

allow a semblance of continence.

But I am not saying that anyone should not be happy but rather take a look at the flip side of what you want. You have thought out all of this and still want it. That is fine. What my problem is is when people want it and haven't thought about the long term consequences. The analogies of bigger boobs and being transgendered doesn't work because there is counseling for transgendered people long before they can make the transition and have to live as a woman for at least a year before they can have surgery. When a women wants a boob job then the surgeon makes a recommendation as to size and most doctors will tell you of the risks and complications of having bigger boobs.

[InconJane]

To XyXy and Creepymouse, I think that you have the wrong idea of what we are saying. I have no problem is someone wants to wear and use diapers 24/7. I have no problem if someone enjoys their diapers and prefers being in them than out of them. I can completely understand the feelings of safety and security that they bring.

We are saying 2 things though. Firstly, if this is a decision that you want to make, please fully inform yourself of all the consequences, including financial, social and lifestyle ones first. Secondly, don't do anything permanent that you will regret later and can't reverse.

I have no problem with people who, with full knowledge of the consequences, choose to "untrain" themselves as they should be equally able to train themselves again if they want to. However when I see threads about surgery to cause voluntary and permanent incontinence, I do get upset.

I understand that this is an incontinence desires page, and I am supportive of people having their desires. I am just sharing my experiences so that people can make informed decisions.

[allen476]

To XyXy and Creepymouse, I think that you have the wrong idea of what we are saying. I have no problem is someone wants to wear and use diapers 24/7. I have no problem if someone enjoys their diapers and prefers being in them than out of them. I can completely understand the feelings of safety and security that they bring.

We are saying 2 things though. Firstly, if this is a decision that you want to make, please fully inform yourself of all the consequences, including financial, social and lifestyle ones first. Secondly, don't do anything permanent that you will regret later and can't reverse.

I have no problem with people who, with full knowledge of the consequences, choose to "untrain" themselves as they should be equally able to train themselves again if they want to. However when I see threads about surgery to cause voluntary and permanent incontinence, I do get upset.

I understand that this is an incontinence desires page, and I am supportive of people having their desires. I am just sharing my experiences so that people can make informed decisions.

Well said

[diapertime42]

The analogies of bigger boobs and being transgendered doesn't work because there is counseling for transgendered people long before they can make the transition and have to live as a woman for at least a year before they can have surgery. When a women wants a boob job then the surgeon makes a recommendation as to size and most doctors will tell you of the risks and complications of having bigger boobs.

I was starting to lose interest in this thread, until "Big Boobies" entered the picture!

[Bettypooh]

Bettypooh, I'm seriously confused who this post is directed towards? It sounds like you thought this was on the main Incontinence board (not desires section), when actually it was on the desires section. The incontinence-desires section cannot be directed "for the incontinent, and for nothing else". This is a case of exactly the opposite of what you describe. An incon came into the desires section and attempted to proselytize people away from incontinence. I just wanted clarification, because I could not pinpoint who exactly your post was directed towards, and the lesson is unclear. I hope that it was not directed towards me. Could you clarify? Thanks.

The lesson was directed towards everyone as a way to remind everyone of what that forum is for and how we deal with it here It was not directed at you or anyone in particular, but because some newer members (as well as some older ones) tend to post things there that don't belong, I speak up on this subject occasionally, trying to prevent problems instead of having to deal with problems which might be preventable As to the lesson being unclear, it seems pretty clear to me but if there's any part you'd like better clarification on reply or PM me and I'll try to explain.

One thing you mention is where an Incon commented on other forums; that is absolutely fine and OK even when they disagree. It is not the people we're being selective over, it's the subject matter placed on that one forum which we more tightly regulate DD has noted (and I agree) that since many of them are not ABDL, they need a separate non-ABDL place to discuss their thoughts That such a forum is on an ABDL site doesn't matter- we aren't going to run them off if they want to stay; in fact we want them to stay because they offer a different perspective on wearing diapers which you might not otherwise get to learn about! Anyone can go there and join those discussions as long as you're respectful of them and do not advocate incontinence there since most of them would rather not have it Just know that we run that forum more tightly than the rest when you post there and remember we will keep the peace there (insert Western-Cowboy-Sheriff-with-Sixguns Icon here)

My personal goal here is to keep the peace as best I can with the least active moderation as possible, and to do that as unbiased as I can manage to do (which isn't always easy). If I see a conflict of interest or feel I cannot make a proper judgement (or one that would be seen as such) I tell the other Mods and let them handle it as they will, accepting whatever they do. I trust their judgement and won't argue it with them I am far from perfect and sometimes my depression gets the best of me- but I really do try to be as fair as I can to all equally because that's what I want for me

Bettypooh

[Bettypooh]

One more lesson (with apologies to xyxy for doing it again ): Please remember that no two people see things in the same way and that no two people have the same experiences even while doing the same thing Here on this diverse site are people who want incontinence, people who don't want incontinence, and people who have incontinence whether they want it or not This diversity is called normal and is how the whole world is in any subject, not just incontinence We can all learn something from each others experiences- and sometimes doing that makes our own life easier Even when we disagree with someone, that alone does not make anyone's point or perspective anymore or less valid than our own- it just makes it different.

Each of us should pursue our own bliss as long as we do it safely and wisely What that bliss is will be different for each of us, but in general, most people consider it unwise to make permanent alterations to one's body unless there is no other option. I feel that way too; you may not- and I don't have a problem with that as long as you are truly aware of what you're doing from all perspectives before you do it.

I am TG, and if I had the money I'd be off to Thailand for surgery I have gone through the diagnostic process for this. In that process you are made to understand fully what you're going to encounter, including the variables and unknowns involved. To get the final approval one must live a year completely the desired gender. This process has proven to be very helpful in keeping a lot people from making uncorrectable mistakes, so I am not against the process (though some are) There is no similar proven process for those who desire incontinence, though the well-known "12 month plan" is a pretty good substitute for the 'real life experience' so I'd recommend doing that before thinking about permanent alterations to your body If you get through that year OK, know and understand fully what may (or may not) happen in the future, then you will be able to make an informed (and likely correct) decision about permanent alterations to your body and not one minute before! Short of that and you increase the chances of being wrong greatly, and since you can't go back it can ruin the rest of your life if you did choose surgery and were wrong Is all your future happiness worth risking that kind of mistake over? It's your decision alone to make- all I want is for it to be the right decision for you whether it is right for someone else or not, and for you to have as much information as you can get before you decide to help you make your right decision. That includes hearing from those who are incontinent and wish they weren't, because if you choose wrong that might be you! It's certainly worth thinking very, very carefully about, isn't it?

Pursue your own bliss safely and sanely and let others do the same

Bettypooh

[InconJane]

Great post Bettypooh.

[Zander]

the well-known "12 month plan" is a pretty good substitute for the 'real life experience' so I'd recommend doing that before thinking about permanent alterations to your body, If you get through that year OK, know and understand fully what may (or may not) happen in the future, then you will be able to make an informed (and likely correct) decision about permanent alterations to your body

I don't expect people will like this, but I absolutely disagree that we should be condoning any such actions.

People seriously considering becoming "voluntarily incontinent" are, by definition, trying to find a way to make themselves involuntarily incontinent. This is clearly something which should be causing them to seek professional help from a competent therapist and/or psychiatrist. If you live in the UK, for gods sake get a referral from your GP for a mental health assessment by someone who knows about behavioural psychotherapy. People with gender identity disorder* should get a referral too (although I expect its a different specialism in the mental health world).

Failure to do so risks taking what is a fantasy / addiction too far (unnecessarily). This might be something we can't (or the person involved doesn't want want to) stop, but this only makes it all the more critical they get assessed by someone who can identify what, if any, mental problems issues they have and design an appropriate treatment course if appropriate.

*: The clue is in the name . Note that the treatment options include having the operation - gender reassignment surgery - done on the NHS if its appropriate. This is not about stopping you having a fulfilling life - this is about making sure you get the help you need. In the case of fantasies / addictions being too far, as in the case of people wanting to be permamently incontinent, I don't know what options are there - so go find out. I can't speak for other countries, but I would expect Canada, most of Europe and the Nordic countries all have similar free-to-access facilitates.

[Bettypooh]

I don't expect people will like this, but I absolutely disagree that we should be condoning any such actions.

People seriously considering becoming "voluntarily incontinent" are, by definition, trying to find a way to make themselves involuntarily incontinent....

I'm fine with your disagreeing, but not your logic How can voluntarily doing something mean that you would prefer that it be involuntary?

I voluntarily go to work to keep my job. Does that mean I desire to be a slave? I think not! I voluntarily give some of my free time to others. Does that mean I'd prefer that helping others on my own time be required of me? Again no So how can wanting to becoming voluntarily incontinent automatically equal wishing it happen would without your choosing it or your being able to stop it through the same mechanism of choice? I cannot see your chain of logic being correct- please explain why you think it right.

There are quite a number of posts in this site from people who tried the 12 month program and decided it wasn't for them There are quite a number of posts from people who liked it and will continue There are several posts from those who tried it and decided to stop, but found they couldn't achieve full control again- one possible outcome of trying this, but rare

One's ability to reach a proper conclusion on any matter is limited by their logic function, and their by their ability to see clearly what that logic is saying and why. If you're logic is flawed, then your conclusions based on that logic cannot be trusted to be correct, and in all likelihood will be erroneous And your logic also fails to take in the human factor of being able to change your decisions.

If you look back to my earliest posts here, you'll find that I once desired incontinence too. I preferred that it be limited but was ready to accept whatever it brought me Those were my true feelings and desires back then. As I learned more about the ABDL world and myself I figured out a concept that changed everything because it was so logical that I couldn't find any flaws in it: You don't have to be incontinent to wear diapers and simply wanting to wear them is enough reason to do it all by itself Yeah, I felt kind of silly missing the obvious but it happened. Back then I felt that a justification for my liking diapers was necessary, but my logic concerning the matter was flawed- and then how I felt changed In learning that I also began to see that not everyone who wants incontinence is like me, so I shouldn't be assigning them with what is right for me because I am not them and what or how I feel doesn't apply to them

Many who desire incontinence and have learned to no longer control their bladder are quite happy with their current lives. I have lost some control over time involuntarily though I honestly wish I hadn't. My wearing diapers didn't have anything to do with that (though ending up wetting myself publicly and visibly a few times beyond my liking certainly did ). I was content to go through life wearing diapers only when I wanted to, perhaps using a pad on my bad days, but that wasn't enough protection so I made the logical choice of wearing diapers to get the protection from the embarrassment of pants wetting that I needed to be happy. I do not desire that my current bladder control lessen, though if it does then I really don't care because I am already wearing diapers 24/7 now. It would bring more changes and possibly more leaks, but that's about it and in accepting myself as someone who wears diapers, that no longer bothers me. I'm happy and I want everyone else to be happy too

Bettypooh

[AZbearlover]

I understand that many incontinent people, like Allen, are being altruistic and trying to look out for those who don't know about the truth behind becoming trained/voluntarily incontinent but when individuals say that people like me, who want to wear 24/7, need to seek mental help, I think that takes it too far.

I want it to establish my credibility before continuing by demonstrating that I am a fully functioning human being. I am 22. I moved out and made a name and living for myself at around 19 or 20. I have paid for two college degrees fully by myself through hard work and -long- nights and have obtained a full time job in the career field that I want. I have a wonderful husband, have my own house, have a great social network of diaper lovers and non-diaper lovers as well as a professional social network. I enjoy video games, enjoy sports, certain t.v. shows, reading, and enjoy being a social butterfly and meeting new people in general.

People like nitrous say "I'm a fucking dumbass" and hopefully doctors can one day cure me of my "affliction". Zander says because I choose diapers as my underwear I should seek professional help. He believes this is frankly a "fantasy."

I have had DL urges since the early age of 2 when I was potty trained. I distinctly remember experiences from that age on of wanting diapers. It's something ingrained in me. By the age of 13 I started wearing recreationally and over a month ago I decided I wanted to wear diapers as my underwear from now on because I find it relaxing and comforting. It's probably accurate that I can liken this to Bettypooh's desire to be transgender.

One of my degrees happens to be in Psychology and according to the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual, something only becomes a disorder/problem when the individual feels that it causes distress or disability to function within himself or causes harm to others.

For example, someone could be very obsessive-compulsive but unless it interferes with his day to day affairs from his perspective or it causes harm to others, you have no right in saying that individual needs mental help. I know someone who is obsessive compulsive with cleaning his house where he has to wash everything six times, and face all labels on products forward. For him it isn't distressing, but relaxing. Is it something I find strange because I don't have those feelings or urges in my life? Yes. Is he sick? No. Do I have any right to judge him for his personal choices? No.

Another example is someone who is scatter brained. People might say he has attention deficit disorder, but if that individual doesn't find his difficulty of keeping attention to be a disabling then it isn't enough for a diagnosis and shouldn't -need- to see a professional because other people think it is disabling for him.

Now I know I am new to being registered to this forum, but I can safely say that diapers have not caused me distress or disability to function in my day to day affairs. Yes, I've only been 24/7 for a month, but I've been wearing diapers consistently for over 9 years and it has never been disabling to me. During those 9 years, I've worn around with many friends, my family, and many different employers. My family knows, and my current boss knows. Some of my friends know and some of them don't. No one cares though and it certainly hasn't disabled my social life because I don't let it.

And my fetish certainly doesn't cause harm to others.

So I will keep wearing my diapers and you can, very rudely, keep saying I'm the one with problems and should seek mental help. At the end of the day I am happy about who I worked so hard to become. I have one life to live and I choose to live it my way - the way that brings the most happiness and satisfaction. Not yours.

[Zander]

I'm fine with your disagreeing, but not your logic How can voluntarily doing something mean that you would prefer that it be involuntary?

I voluntarily go to work to keep my job. Does that mean I desire to be a slave? I think not! I voluntarily give some of my free time to others. Does that mean I'd prefer that helping others on my own time be required of me? Again no So how can wanting to becoming voluntarily incontinent automatically equal wishing it happen would without your choosing it or your being able to stop it through the same mechanism of choice? I cannot see your chain of logic being correct- please explain why you think it right.

The problem here is that we are using terms like "voluntarily" etc. in multiple contexts. It is kind of twisted logic, but I shall try to clarify.

Currently they have a choice whether go to the toilet or not (within the limits of their current physical tolerance). This means they volunteer when they want to go to the toilet based on their need to go. In becoming "voluntarily incontinent" they are choosing to remove their ability to have this choice. I.e. they are choosing to become, simply, incontinent. They may have chosen that path, but if 'successful' they can't reverse that decision. I.e. from the point they succeed they'll be incontinent, whether they like it or not. If they don't, I'd say its then involuntary incontinence.

I figured out a concept that changed everything because it was so logical that I couldn't find any flaws in it: You don't have to be incontinent to wear diapers and simply wanting to wear them is enough reason to do it all by itself Yeah, I felt kind of silly missing the obvious but it happened. Back then I felt that a justification for my liking diapers was necessary, but my logic concerning the matter was flawed- and then how I felt changed In learning that I also began to see that not everyone who wants incontinence is like me, so I shouldn't be assigning them with what is right for me because I am not them and what or how I feel doesn't apply to them

That you were able to make that conceptual jump / conclusion before making a potential permament mistake (for you) is exactly why I made my reply above. There is no guarantee others will be as aware, intelligent or rational as you are. By advising they involve a specialist before things get too late, we help ensure there is a framework to help those people find alternate solutions, outlets or simply to reaffirm their choice in a controlled manner.

Many who desire incontinence and have learned to no longer control their bladder are quite happy with their current lives.

I very much doubt it's many, and I'm sure the opposite also applies - people who sincerely regret the experience. Regardless, I'm not saying its something people simply should not do - I'm saying they should get get help/support/someone to question their thoughts/etc. before embarking on such an endeavour.

something only becomes a disorder/problem when the individual feels that it causes distress or disability to function within himself or causes harm to others.

Good point. The idea I'm pushing here is prevention though - i.e. they may become incontinent and be fine with it to start with, only later may it become something which causes "distress and/or disability to function". I still think this is something which should be talked over with a professional before embarking on such drastic action - there may be alternative options which satisfy their desires without the permament loss of choice regarding their continence.

So I will keep wearing my diapers and you can, very rudely, keep saying I'm the one with problems and should seek mental help.

I'm not saying you have mental problems, nor that you need mental help. I've never said as such and certainly I didn't mean to imply that either. I'm sorry you saw what I said as rude, no offence was intended

I'm simply trying to say that you (or anyone looking to become incontinent out of choice) should talk it over with someone qualified before embarking on such a scheme.

... on an unrelated note - its nice to see a 'controversial' thread filled with well well-argued points in reasoned posts thus far untainted by trolls

[XyXy]

Zander,

People who desire incontinence are already "seeking professional help" by virtue of coming here, reading these posts and engaging in discussion. They get to hear all viewpoints, and who knows this subject better than us? A psychologist with a paper degree? Sure they know about fetishes in general, and they can look at the DSM and tell you that when a fetish interferes with your life, you have a problem. But beyond that, what practical help could they offer? They don't know anything about adult diapers, or the daily routine of dealing with incontinence. Now, it may come as a surprise to you, but I am saying this as a psychologist myself. Of course a very small percentage of psychologists would know this subject matter inside and out like myself, but for the most part, they are more generalists than specialists. I believe that people are getting specialized self-help by coming here and participating on sites like this. It is my contention that you do them a disservice by immediately referring them to "professional, specialized help", when in a very true sense, they are already getting it.

Putting aside the fact that I disagree with many of your premises and conclusions, let me ask you this. In what way do you think you are qualified to be suggesting to anyone that they seek professional therapy for wanting to become incontinent? Have you done clinical studies on people that demonstrate a need for professional intervention? Do you have a degree in psychology or medicine? Can you point me to the section in the DSM that this is listed as a problem? My guess, based on my intuition is that you have none. I wonder, have you considered seeking a professional therapist for your problem of encouraging others to seek professional therapists? I'm not asking you this in my capacity as a psychologist, but rather as a concerned citizen with only the feeling that what you are doing is wrong, and I am right. Because of this inner feeling that I know better than you, but without the ability to coherently lay forth an indisputable argument, I'll just suggest that you seek professional help, implying that you have a problem, and are unable to cope with it on your own. Oh, but let me add the qualifier now that I'm not suggesting you seek "mental help", or that you have a "mental problem". I'm just saying that you should seek professional help, for your ... issue.

The main premise that I disagree with you on is that many or even a substantial portion of people who seek incontinence will not be able to reverse course. Getting a medical procedure to make one incontinent would likely be irreversible, but by just trying to atrophy the muscles, it is highly unlikely that it is not completely reversible. It is practically impossible for a healthy individual to get a medical procedure, so I think that we can rule that out, and allow that people who talk about it are engaging in wishful thinking, or maybe even just fantisizing, but in reality no harm is likely to come of it. Granted, there may be a statistically irrelevant percentage of people who manage to get a procedure done, but at this point, fault likely lies with the doctor. For the most part, this leaves people with the option of wearing diapers 24/7, and gradually reducing the ability to hold on to urine. But in this case, there is no damage being done. What we are dealing with is a muscle, which has a tremendous ability to change it's size and strength. But just not using it, the worst that will happen is the sphincters will atrophy, and the bladder will reduce in size. With the exception of very old people, the ability of the body to reverse course and revert to normal functioning is not impaired by any mechanism that I am aware of. The very few people who claim that they lost control, and were unable to regain it probably could regain it with techniques like biofeedback and pelvic floor exercises. The muscles are still there, just greatly weakened. It might take a long time to get back to normal, and perhaps this is why they think that they are unable to regain control. If it takes you years to lose continence, you cannot expect to regain control in a few days. But, the muscles are still there, the nerves are still there, the brain is still there, basically all the parts required are still there, and they are still functioning, so regaining control by atrophy should not be a real issue of concern.

The other main way to lose continence would probably be through the long term use of foley catheters. This I agree is dangerous, and could lead to very severe problems including death. I am more in agreement with you here that people should know all the facts before going down this road. Some of the major problems are chronic bladder infections, and studies have shown that long term foley catheter use leads to greatly increased chances of bladder cancer. So we are talking about a dangerous procedure here. However, even for this reason, I would not suggest that somebody seek professional help. For one, catheters by their nature are self-limiting. Most people are simply not able to wear them long term due to the pain. For those who can, after their first major infection, many will stop doing it. I had to wear a catheter one time for medical reasons, and ended up getting a nasty MRSA infection in my bladder. Let me tell you that pissing out pure blood is one frightening experience, and I will only use the damned things as a very last resort. For the very small percentage of people who are able to go on and wear catheters long term, I have to say that they are probably incredibly determined, and nothing anyone else can say would deter them. We are talking about free, otherwise healthy individuals here. And, unless they display some other signs or symptoms of a mental imbalance, the worst we can accuse them of is being foolish and even masochistic. This by itself is perfectly legal, and nobody has the authority to force someone into "getting help". I know plenty of foolish and masochistic people in other ways, who do stupid things, such as smoking, or drinking excessively, both of which damage the body and can lead to cancer. Does this mean that they are in need of professional therapy? Not by itself it doesn't. Now, if they are also having suicidal thoughts, or thinking of harming another person, then we can talk about medical or psychological intervention, because this crosses a line of causing harm to another, and suicidal tendencies often times reflect much deeper and often treatable problems.

In effect, by suggesting that somebody seek professional help for problems that are not really that serious, what one does is dilute the efficacy of the profession. There are some genuinely serious psychological disturbances out there, which make an incontinence fantasy absolutely pale by comparison. If we start calling everything that we disagree with a mental disorder, then before we know it, everybody will have a dozen labels for behaving outside of a very narrow box of acceptable norms. In fact, this is already a problem, for example experiencing grief after the death of a loved one for more than 2 months is now a mental disorder. Let me tell you an insider secret here. The more labels we can put on people, the more money we can make through therapy and the more money pharmaceuticals can make by peddling their drugs. This is not the right course of action that a healthy and enlightened society wants to intensify.

Finally, you can call it "mental health", or "somebody who is qualified" or whatever you like. We all know what you are referring to, and pitter-patting around trying to be politically correct does not change the essence of what you are suggesting. You are suggesting that a person go to the mental health section of a hospital, and seek out a mental health therapist. By implication, you are suggesting that this person has a mental disorder, that only a "qualified" person can properly assess and possibly treat. That is why people go to mental health, because they have mental disorders. You don't fool me with your attempts to water down these words. What you are referring to is in fact mental health. It is disingenuous for you to try and claim otherwise, and at least some of the other posters don't try to reduce what they are implying. They very clearly say that such people have mental problems, and/or are "a fucking dumbass". You are essentially in the same camp as these people, and sophistry will not serve to separate you.

Here are some quotes from you. Can you tell me why I have a problem with this?

"Considering such a drastic change to your life suggests you have deeper mental health issues" -Zander

"people seriously considering such extreme actions are in need of mental healthcare facilities." -Zander

"I'm not saying you have mental problems, nor that you need mental help. I've never said as such and certainly I didn't mean to imply that either." -Zander

I think that you need to get your story straight, and look at your own inconsistencies before you attempt to fix the problems of others. Booya!

[InconJane]

... on an unrelated note - its nice to see a 'controversial' thread filled with well well-argued points in reasoned posts thus far untainted by trolls

Whilst I don't agree with all of the opinions expressed in this thread, I do agree with Zander that it is great to see well-argued points in reasoned posts.

Please keep this thread going. It is cathartic and bringing some sanity to this topic.

[Total Trash]

Not taking anyone's side, but could we please maybe refrain from making accusations about other people's sanity or lack thereof? It's a really messed up tactic for making a point, especially since I'm sure plenty of people here have had their own feelings and experience invalidated or been subjected to non-consensual treatment in the name of "the professional knows best."