This Got Me Thinking...

[TDL]

I am a common news reader, but an article I saw a while ago made me think. It was about male caretakers at kindergarden. In Denmark, 80% of all kindergardens have specific rules about what male caretakers can and cannot do to the children. Some doesn't allow the men to hold the childrens hands, and some doesn't allow them to change the kids. Why are men always looked down upon if it has something to do with taking care of children? Sure, more paedophiles are male, but that can't be the only problem. I had no idea where to post this, but I guess it goes here.

[Jabez]

Right or wrong, I personally would feel better if male caretakers were not allowed to change or do certain things with my children (if I had any). I think it is just done as a precaution and to put parent's at ease.

[Juliabam]

I am a common news reader, but an article I saw a while ago made me think. It was about male caretakers at kindergarden. In Denmark, 80% of all kindergardens have specific rules about what male caretakers can and cannot do to the children. Some doesn't allow the men to hold the childrens hands, and some doesn't allow them to change the kids. Why are men always looked down upon if it has something to do with taking care of children? Sure, more paedophiles are male, but that can't be the only problem. I had no idea where to post this, but I guess it goes here.

AS far as I know, pretty much all cases seen with adults who were supposed to take care of other pee ples children but done indecent things instead, are involving men. I don't say all men does or will ever think about ding any child harm, but it appears as if some have found reason based on previous experience, to make rules to ensure parents that their children are protected the best possible way, and to protect their male staff the best possible way against any claims false or regular that they should have been acting wrong.

Sometimes the few ruin it for the many, but wen they do and it seems to be a returning problem, sometimes the best is to just protect both parties with what seems to be rather strange rules. I believe some of those rules are made also to protect the male staff against the parents, even though only a few parents do make false claims against male staff.

[PArms]

'Kindergarten Cop' may be just a movie, but it carries many truths about male role models in that specific setting. I disapprove of this stereotype as I am a single male, early 30's. For many years, I taught TaeKwonDo and had loads of fun with the kids. I've never had a parent who disliked the setting.

[Cid]

Ok this may not be the best written post as the general acceptance of discrimination against male is one of the topics I get very riled up by so sorry if I get a little ranty but that is a loud of rubbish. To say that you can't do a certant role just because you happen to be in a social group that is statically more likely to do something wrong is indefinable whatever that social group is. You can't blame all men for the action of a few.

Also I will dig up the report on this at another time if I can find it but I know that in the UK at least the number ration of abuse against children by men and women is massively miss reported. Which then feeds in to the problem because the number of (mainly) boys that are abused by woman and wait over 20years to report it is much high than that of children abused by men due to the general social view of such things making them feel more ashamed.

And farther more as much as I would never wish to give any excuse for the truly horrible things some men do but how do you expect to have a society of men how have healthy relationship with children if you try to keep them apart all the time and any interaction there is it is made to feel stressful and uneasy because they feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are being judged. And this feeds into the next generation as you have a generation of boys growing up with near minimal contact with adult males so they never learn how that relationship is meant to work.

Normally I am all for people having their own views regardless of how much they differ from mine but discrimination is discrimination. And doing one evil to hopefully stop another can never be right.

[AutieAB]

AS far as I know, pretty much all cases seen with adults who were supposed to take care of other pee ples children but done indecent things instead, are involving men.

What about this case, which horrified Britain less than a year ago?

[Juliabam]

What about this case, which horrified Britain less than a year ago?

ah well, I still think mentioned rules are as much to protect the employees as they are meant to assure parents that their kids are being weel looked after. No matter how stupid such rules may sound.

[AutieAB]

But when you roll over and take crap like the situation the OP described, that's when freedoms and civil liberties are lost. Not much is worth giving those up.

Can you imagine the uproar there would (rightly!) be if was was written in a job description:

We are an equal opportunity employer and do not discriminate in our hiring practices on the grounds of race, ethnic origin, citizenship or nationality. However, because there is a greater proportion of black people in the prison system than there are in the population at large, that must mean they're more likely to be criminals. Therefore, we reserve the right to not allow black people work in the electronics department.

I'm sure the vast majority agree that such a situation would be morally reprehensible and, of course, utterly illegal in just about all developed countries. It's exactly the same as the situation the OP described though. Discrimination is never acceptable and certainly not just to appease brainless morons who think any man near a child must be a pervert.

[Juliabam]

And you can not become the president of the united states without being "american" because they fear a european will take over and swap the dollar for euro.. Blah, I saw no mentioning that men were not allowed to be working in the kindergarden, I saw only arguments that they could/should not be doing certain parts of the job that involved touching and undressing. That Might not be just because they are men, but because there have been quite a number of situations where a little kid have told stories about games they might have been playing with other kids that might have involved touching, undressing and exploring as little kids do. If the unfortunate caretaker is mentioned in the same story and is male, there might be a good chance that the parent, if not other than just to be safe report the story. It has been known that caretakers have been reported for no other reson than the parents have heard their child tell a story, wouldn't it help a lot if a few simple do's and dont's definded by the kindergarden and perhaps the parents, could minimize the risk of both something happening and someone being wrongly accused.

It may be that some feel it's unfair that men gets blamed for most sexual crimes especially because most men would never think about anything like that, but that is how things are just bad shit for all the good guys, I would love to see you make a law that forbids pee ple to think that way.

But when you roll over and take crap like the situation the OP described, that's when freedoms and civil liberties are lost. Not much is worth giving those up.

Can you imagine the uproar there would (rightly!) be if was was written in a job description:

I'm sure the vast majority agree that such a situation would be morally reprehensible and, of course, utterly illegal in just about all developed countries. It's exactly the same as the situation the OP described though. Discrimination is never acceptable and certainly not just to appease brainless morons who think any man near a child must be a pervert.

[AutieAB]

Blah, I saw no mentioning that men were not allowed to be working in the kindergarden, I saw only arguments that they could/should not be doing certain parts of the job that involved touching and undressing.

That's my point. You just can't say "you can have the job but you can't do certain bits of it because you're male." It's no different to saying "you can have the job but can't do certain bits of it because of the colour of your skin." Either both of those examples are acceptable practices or neither are. You can't mix and match the factors that anti-discrimination laws should apply to.

There are only a handful exceptions to employment sex discrimination law in Britain - one is for personal carers, which allows you to require applicants to match the gender of the person to be cared for if they so wish, another is in the sex industry so (for example) strip clubs can require applicants of their <ahem> target gender. AFAIK, though, that's about it.

I know the situation the OP described is prohibited by law in the UK but paedo-panic is alive and well. People should stand up against such things but because it's "won't somebody please think of the children", nobody does

[Darkfinn]

When it comes to kids, people are paranoid... we will discriminate, pass all kinds of crazy laws, and possibly let people get away with murder as long as it is done "to protect the children".

[TDL]

It's good to see some discussions! In my humble opinion, these "rules" are totally unacceptable, but also inevitable. I mean, sure we could get fancy and talk about how the brain cells react (or teosteron*) on different genders, but to keep it simple, I just wish that men aren't looked down upon when it comes to taking care of a child. Unfortunately, I don't think that this will be changed. For social society, a male taking care of kids equals paedophile.

[Yvhuce]

Public perception really tends to shape things like laws and the general portrayal of stereotypes. It's one of the reasons there's a stigma about AB/DLs. Because of all the wackos out there that get public attention. The public perception of pedophiles usually involves men, and often younger kids. The general perception of female pedophiles are teachers who target teenage boys. Though, it is possible that these types of things can be proven by statistics... For example, most serial killers are white men. And most murders are committed by someone who knew the victim. Those are scientifically proven facts. So, we have to take care when dealing with certain topics. Rampant profiling IS wrong. But sometimes profiling helps stop certain problems. If there is honest reason to suspect a group of people for something, then simply ignoring that reason will lead to more problems than following it. There will always be exceptions to the "rules", but those tend to be rare enough to be outweighed by those who "prove the rule".

[TDL]

Proven or not, it is still wrong to cut a workers work, If you know what I mean. If I go through education as a lawyor, I want to speak for my clients, not doing some paper work because I can't speak for that particular client, since he's going through a divorce, and the vast majority of male lawyers seems to fail on that subject. Just making a randomly generated example there.

[Dubious]

who wanna change a dirty diaper anyway..

[Saschadzg]

Hi,

When I was in hospital, I had male and female nurses. Some of them even saw me exposed.

As I child I was neglected my Catholic nuns in hospital, so it does not depend on the sex, when children are harassed or mistreated.

Kvetinka

[timmyc]

remember the old days when parents raised their children and didn't pawn them off on other people. Potty training was achieved well before kindergarten.

[Yvhuce]

remember the old days when parents raised their children and didn't pawn them off on other people. Potty training was achieved well before kindergarten.

Yeah... Our town has a stipulation that kids have to be potty trained before they can enter the school system, because of a lack of funding and people trained/certified to handle kids in diapers. Typically only the special ed kids are allowed to stay in diapers. Not to mention the flack that such a kid would catch from their classmates, and that their parents would catch from the other adults in the community. It's not considered normal here for a kid to be in diapers much past the age of 2.

[Darkfinn]

remember the old days when parents raised their children and didn't pawn them off on other people. Potty training was achieved well before kindergarten.

Maybe things are a bit backwards in Myrtle Beach... but as far as I am aware children being toilet trained before kindergarten is pretty much a national standard. I don't know of any public schools that change diapers.

[timmyc]

Maybe things are a bit backwards in Myrtle Beach...

well that is a whole other topic, and could probably go on for days

but as far as I am aware children being toilet trained before kindergarten is pretty much a national standard. I don't know of any public schools that change diapers.

The original post that I responded too was Danish so it is kind of a moot point anyway.

[curiositykilledthecat]

I am a common news reader, but an article I saw a while ago made me think. It was about male caretakers at kindergarden. In Denmark, 80% of all kindergardens have specific rules about what male caretakers can and cannot do to the children. Some doesn't allow the men to hold the childrens hands, and some doesn't allow them to change the kids. Why are men always looked down upon if it has something to do with taking care of children? Sure, more paedophiles are male, but that can't be the only problem. I had no idea where to post this, but I guess it goes here.

having had to pass an fbi background check in order to work in the nursery at the church I was attending whilst in bible school, I can testify that I am glad I wasn't allowed to change any children's diapers.

[Mary-Ann]

I don't think that Danish law is going to protect kids . if somebody want to abuse children they will find a way

[Dubious]

nothing like touching a child, oh ye !

[DL Wink]

Right or wrong, I personally would feel better if male caretakers were not allowed to change or do certain things with my children (if I had any). I think it is just done as a precaution and to put parent's at ease.

Im a guy and even I could understand that

[Vermino]

I want Affirmative action! haha na, i mean come on - when we were kids, girls were the babysitters and boys did paper routes or lemonade stands. You know there is alot of men that are great with kids (kind-of like the movie "daddy daycare") but yea, because of stereotypes (pedo's) they cant pursue those kind of careers. Myself i'm a great father figure, i know how to roll over and say "hunny, the baby's crying"

There is never gonna be a perfect world - middle easterners are gonna be hassled at airports, women are gonna be given a hard time at labor jobs and men well that's why this topic is up here. Just have to live with it or fight for your cause.