Shrinking Bladder.

[tonysplace]

I'm comfortably at the stage where if I feel the slightest bit of urine in my bladder I can simply let it out in my nappy in any position. I now if I continued this 24/7 it would eventually leave me incontinent of urine. What sequence of events would take place within my sphincter and bladder over the course of a year. I presume my bladder capacity will shrink to the point where I develop severe stress and urge incontinence but because I wearing anyway just means sometimes I'll be unaware I'm dribbling and other times I'll have a strong inpulse to go to urinate. What after this? Total incontinence? Dribbling all the time without realizing and be continually in wet nappies? Would my sphincter muscle waste away resulting in permanent incontinence?

What are your thoughts on this?, Tony.

[diapertime42]

Hmmm.... you assume alot of urologists hang out on this forum??

[tonysplace]

Hmmm.... you assume alot of urologists hang out on this forum??

No, but I'll appreciate any educated guesses on the subject.

[Guest dl_aslee]

Well unless you have something physically wrong you can always repotty train yourself, it may take a bit, just as if you were little and being potty trained.

I think it also all depends on the person on how far your unpotty training goes. I have such a strong bladder muscle I probably couldn't even get as far as you no matter how hard I tried.

So just keep doing it and if you decide latter that you don't want it that way just start to repotty train yourself.

[nappyboymids]

I agree with abrera - I don't think the bladder shrinks as such, but it empties more frequently, and you feel the urge to go strongly even if there's not much in there. So your bladder behaviour changes. But if I drink beer then I still find that when I get the urge to pee - and it comes on quickly - I still pee a lot. OTOH in a normal day-to-day situation I find I pee a little and often, and quite often dribble without noticing. While sometimes I notice that I'm peeing, especially if the flow is reasonably strong (although it's a lot weaker than it used to be) I notice that I have no sense of stopping and seem to dribble for ages. So if you stay 24/7 and use your nappies whenever you need to and never hold back, the behaviour of your bladder will change, and the natural state of 'holding on' will reduce. Quite how this will turn out in the end depends on the individual I think, as does the amount of time it will take. I guess you have to decide if this is what you want - if you're happy being in nappies 24/7 and want to become incontinent then go for it. I'm very happy that way - but it's not for everyone as many people here will tell you ...

[pctrasher]

So, if you were to wear and use your diapers for 24/7 you want to know what would happen. Well, from what I've seen on the forums from people who experienced this. Your bladder does shrink a little, but more importantly, it loses elasticity (it's made of the same kind of flesh that the human stomache is made out of). After a while of not using the sphicters, they will develope atrophy (sp?) to a point of no return and the muscles will eventually die off leaving the incontinence perminent. And yea, you would notice a constant flow as the days go by. The first major change though is the mental change where you train your mind not to bother holding it in. Then once that's mastered, holding it in becomes as hard as it is for most people to wet their diapers. But ultimately, after years of 24/7 without holding in ANYTHING you will become permanently incontinent as some other less fortunate members of our community found out the hard way. Thats about all the information that I've gathered about the subject as I get my info from the experiences from other ppl since I don't have experience in this subject on my own.

[tonysplace]

So after the urinary sphincter has atrophied from prolong disuse you have no chance of regaining your continence, meaning life long total dribbling incontinence? I want to experience being incontinent and all that it entails, eg dribbling constantly, the clean ups, have people now I have to wear nappies. I have a couple of years to regain my incontinence and see if its really right for me but where do I draw the line. Will my sphincter atrophy within a year of none use leaving me permanently incontinent or would it perhaps take longer them this. I'm at the state now where I can uriarte my nappy at the slightest urge even after weeks of not wearing.

[Darkfinn]

I've been wearing 24/7 since April... I have definately noticed that my bladder has decreased in size and become less elastic... it is hard for me to hold more than a few ounces now.

[woobert]

Darkfinn have you had any luck with wetting at night at this point? I have been considering trying this for a while to see if I can retrain and still keep some of the bedwetting. I figure at that point the mind is used to going at night so it would continue unless trained otherwise.

[Darkfinn]

Sadly I haven't had much luck with bedwetting. The only way I can really do it is if I drink a ton right before bed... then I wake up after just a few hours with a bulging bladder. I can wet while laying down... but I always seem to flood... which kinda defeats the purpose.

I figure if I stick with it long enough it will eventually happen. I already wet during the daytime without any real conscious effort... so I figure if this is a reversal of toilet training, daytime is the first to go... then nights will follow. It just takes time, patience, and consistency.

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

So, if you were to wear and use your diapers for 24/7 you want to know what would happen. Well, from what I've seen on the forums from people who experienced this. Your bladder does shrink a little, but more importantly, it loses elasticity (it's made of the same kind of flesh that the human stomache is made out of). After a while of not using the sphicters, they will develope atrophy (sp?) to a point of no return and the muscles will eventually die off leaving the incontinence perminent. And yea, you would notice a constant flow as the days go by. The first major change though is the mental change where you train your mind not to bother holding it in. Then once that's mastered, holding it in becomes as hard as it is for most people to wet their diapers. But ultimately, after years of 24/7 without holding in ANYTHING you will become permanently incontinent as some other less fortunate members of our community found out the hard way. Thats about all the information that I've gathered about the subject as I get my info from the experiences from other ppl since I don't have experience in this subject on my own.

Oh, God!!!!!!!!!!! This trumps what I've been wanting to ask but was too afraid. And it ruins the chances of it ever happening for me. Though unrelated but sort-of related, I guess I'll share...

I was never potty trained, as directed under the advice of my childhood ped. This was due to my urinary tract being under developed--the major reason. The doc suggested that it would be no use, not only because of the under developed urinary tract but also the numerous chronic illnesses, so it was never done.

i always wondered if I'd be able to at least use my bowels, but I'm too embarrassed to ask about that. Not to mention, who would I ask? It is not like there is anyone there to train an adult. Well, not unless you go into rehab or something, which I'll never do. I wouldn't even know where to begin. Since there is so much unknown, I've never bothered to ask. I've never bothered to pursue anything. I mean, this stuff is so taboo in our society, hence the great hesitation for me not wanting to even come out and talk to my doctor about such things. It is so embarrassing. It is like an adolescent boy having his first wet dream and feeling embarrassed or freaking out. Or, it really could be likened to the pre-puberty girl who has a changing body and who starts her period. It is not QUITE like that, as those things can sort-of be discussed, but most, if not all of you here know how taboo it is to talk about or even HAVE incontinence. i mean, you talk about potty training a baby because it is natural. But, it would be disgusting and highly unthinkable to talk about doing that with an adult, even if there ARE special needs. So, I just kept quiet all tese years and kept my curiosity to myself. I just accepted things as they were never venturing, though, the question always nags at me.

The point of the atrophy that was brought up was even more discouraging. I'm twenty-eight years of age, far far past the potty training age or the window in which is or should be done. It has been all my life that those muscles were never used normally, as in how everyone else would use them. I'm not sure where I did see it, but I've heard that if parents wait much too long to potty train children, dammage could already be done, and it would not be possible or at least very, very difficult. I'll do my research again, but I'm sure i saw something like that.

Do you all know anything I could do? Do you think it is over for me? I know that the possibility of ever using my bladder or any part of my urinary tract is out the window, but I was always curious about my bowels since nobody ever said there was anything wrong with them. But, another thing I should also keep in mind is that I have MS. And if MS has affected my bowels, which I would not know since I've never been trained to use them, it would also ruin progress. Sheesh! So much crap, and pardon the pun.

[tonysplace]

From my limited understanding once you let your bowles go ( I mean full anal sphincter atrophy ) you have no chance of ever regaining control of them and its the worst kind of incontinence. Passive fecal incontinence. You can be shopping and completely soil yourself without realizing it then sit down and feel the wet sticky mess in your nappy, thinking when did I do that? Its much more easy to loose control of the anal sphincter then the urethral sphincter becuase your unconsciously flexing the urethral sphincter at night where as with the anal sphincter you have a routine and just let out and they atrophy much quicker. After many months of not using the anal sphincter your only only choice is a colostomy bag or nappies 24/7. You crap your pany anyplace.

[Incomplete Dude]

Internal muscles, such as sphincters, the heart and that which lines intestines, are smooth muscle. This is different than the muscles that control your skeleton and movement. Afaik, smooth muscle does not atrophy nearly as fast, if at all. I personally believe that most of learned incontinence, is just that learned. The mind changes how it responds to stimuli, leading to the emulation of physical incontinence. Kegel exercises help to heal physical damage and to retrain the mind to use that muscle, but I don't think atrophy is nearly as big a factor as people imagine. Then again, I'm not a doctor.

I certainly don't think the bladder shrinks either. I mean, consider the skin, if someone becomes morbidly obese and loses the weight, their skin does not shrink with it. You have to get plastic surgery to remove the extra. On the other hand, it's very well known that the mind can very quickly change at what capacity it feels the bladder is full. Given the tremendous plasticity of that relationship, I'm certain that most learned incon is simply a modulation of that response to a very sensitive level.

[babykeiff]

Let me say this once and for all since you seem to all be asking this question in many forms.

1. A muscle that is unused - like a sphincter will wither. If it is unused for long enough, it will die completely. The medical term is 'atrophied'. Once a muscle has atrophied, there is NO way to reactivate it.

2. The subconscious mind will make decisions about what it needs to control. If you wear diapers 24/7/365, the subconscious mind will start NOT to notify the conscious mind of your need to void.

3. The bladder is a MUSCULAR bag, that is in a relaxed state 24/7. As it fills with urine, it expands. This is due to the urethral sphincter (muscle that is constantly held closed, and relaxes when you wish to void urine) being held tightly closed and not due to the bag reacting to urine going in to it. Therefore, if the sphincter is constantly relaxed/not being used/atrophied, the bladder will also atrophy and no longer expand.

4. The anal sphincter will follow suite. This is due to two things, the reduced of blood to the urethral sphincter, and the lack of information being sent to the conscious mind via the subconscious mind.

5. When a muscle atrophies, the blood vesicles supplying the muscle with blood constrict and reduce and eventually close thus denying the muscle with nutrients etc. Since the anal and urethral sphincters are on the same direct capillary, the reduction in blood flow to the urethral sphincter directly effects the anal sphincter.

In other words, if you are in diapers 24/7/365 for a number of years, and are starting to notice a lack of control, you ARE incontinent and can look forward to further lack of control and not the reverse.

[AndB]

I think that if you wear and use diapers 24/7, you're essentially incontinent anyway. Whether or not you "have control" is not really relevant.

If you wish to regain control, it may be difficult, but probably not impossible.

To our never trained friend: if you really want to be potty trained, never ever give up hope! I think it's a good idea to talk to your doctor -- I assume your doctor already knows that you wear diapers. He or she will probably be able to give you some kind of assistance. No, there is nobody to "train an adult" except for yourself, but if you really want it you can get there.

[tonysplace]

Would letting yourself become double incontinent at the same time make your bladder and bowles atrophy faster then say just letting the bladder go? What are the signs of sphincter atrophy and what would the incontinence be like?

Many thanks.

[nappyboymids]

I confess I'm confused by the argument that if you're urinary incontinent that you'll also inevitably become bowel incontinent - surely if that was the case the number of bowel and bladder incontinent people would be much closer together? I understand that urinary incontinence is not just caused by/related to the sphincter muscles so this might be part of the explanation for the difference in numbers - but I'm still confused!

I can only tell you what incontinence is like for me: I sometimes realise I need to pee but sensing that comes on pretty quickly and often not in time to get to a bathroom (or, even if there is time, I'm not in a situation where I can stop what I'm doing in order to go to the bathroom). I tend to dribble rather than flood; I can usually feel the flow starting 'inside' but I can't feel anything towards the end of my urethra so I don't really sense when I start to pee and have no sense at all about when I stop - as I'm not emptying a full bladder there isn't that sense of physical relief you get from the removal of the pressure. I'm very happy in my nappies so I don't make any effort to control things so that's no doubt made my incontinence more 'severe' - I don't know to what extent if any my muscles have atrophied and, as I enjoy being incontinent, haven't tried anything that might lead me to regain control ...

Would letting yourself become double incontinent at the same time make your bladder and bowles atrophy faster then say just letting the bladder go? What are the signs of sphincter atrophy and what would the incontinence be like?

Many thanks.

[babykeiff]

Would letting yourself become double incontinent at the same time make your bladder and bowles atrophy faster then say just letting the bladder go?

...

tonysplace, the quick answer is YES, but the more correct answer is no. This is due to the usage of either muscle (anal vs urinary sphincters). further information lower within post

...What are the signs of sphincter atrophy...

Urinary sphincter atrophy would mean that the bladder will empty via gravity rather than allow itself to fill and expand. This usually means that you weep urine 24/7 and would flood if you got up from lying down/sitting down etc.

Anal sphincter atrophy would mean that you are either 1/slowly messing your diaper by peristaltic action from 30mins to 4 hours after your last meal OR 2/will mess your diaper as soon as you stand after eating a meal. The function of the anal sphincter is to allow your bowels to fill, and without it functioning, you will never fill your bowels, but would fill your diaper as slow/fast.

....and what would the incontinence be like?

There is no straight answer to 'what would the incontinence be like' as it would really depend on your diet - water / fiber / roughage within your stools as much as it is on your mobility etc. Think of it this way - a newborn with a diet solely of liquid - will wet/mess his/her diaper without awareness either awake or asleep, whilst a toddler on solid food, is normally, fully aware when he/she needs to mess and commonly hides before filling his/her pants. This is based on diet and sphincter position as a toddler has his/her anal sphincter normally closed and will react to pressure in his/her bowels. A newborn will normally have their anal sphincter open. If your poop is soft enough, you will also mess without awareness.

I confess I'm confused by the argument that if you're urinary incontinent that you'll also inevitably become bowel incontinent....

It is the case, but what is also involved is peoples wishes to re-gain control. This arrests the atrophy process in the associated muscles.

I can only tell you what incontinence is like for me: I sometimes realise I need to pee but sensing that comes on pretty quickly and often not in time to get to a bathroom (or, even if there is time, I'm not in a situation where I can stop what I'm doing in order to go to the bathroom). I tend to dribble rather than flood; I can usually feel the flow starting 'inside' but I can't feel anything towards the end of my urethra so I don't really sense when I start to pee and have no sense at all about when I stop - as I'm not emptying a full bladder there isn't that sense of physical relief you get from the removal of the pressure. I'm very happy in my nappies so I don't make any effort to control things so that's no doubt made my incontinence more 'severe' - I don't know to what extent if any my muscles have atrophied and, as I enjoy being incontinent, haven't tried anything that might lead me to regain control ...

You don't have to answer, but your bowel control is currently, due to your time in nappies(diapers) and failure to hold, a little less than perfect - Yes? This is due to your mindset. However, if you were of the opinion that nappies (diapers) were something of a social problem, your bowel control would be close to perfect and your bladder protection would be something like light pads or pull-ups. Believe me, I am NOT judging you or condemning you. I respect your choice. For myself, I am medically qualified, and yet I am both bladder and bowel incontinent - and extremely happy.

A continent person has their urinary sphincter tightly closed 24/7 and only releases it in response to their bladder contracting. The anal sphincter is normally semi-relaxed, but will slowly close as pressure is increased within the bowels. The anal sphincter is extremely poor at holding back liquid since it never closes tightly. Secondly, if you chose to wear diapers, it is easier to deal with damp/wet diapers than it is to deal with messy and potentially smelly ones. Once you get over the stigma of wearing 24/7/365, a diaper is easy to hide under street clothes be it wet of dry. However, a messy diaper is not that easy to hide, and with the average diet that causes people to force mess into their diaper, it is not very discreet to fill a diaper in public. As a result, urinary incontinent people do not become bowel incontinent unless they wish to be. - ie 1/ Change their diet. 2/Consume activated charcoal tablets (to eliminate smell) 3/Consume cod-liver oil tablets (to soften the poop & speed up digestive rhythm) 4/Increase the water content within the diet. All these ensure that their poop is soft and will pass without force or smell.

I hope this helps and also dispels any confusion to the imbalance between bowel and bladder incontinence statistics.

[tonysplace]

Anal sphincter atrophy would mean that you are either 1/slowly messing your diaper by peristaltic action from 30mins to 4 hours after your last meal.

Dose that mean you are slowly leaking poop for a couple of hours after you eat? Lets say at a ball game is it easy to hide that your soiling your diaper. How easy is it change a soild diaper in the toilets? Would you be leaking poop and dribbling pee while you are changing?

If both sphincters have atrophied would surgery help restore continence? Thanks.

[babykeiff]

Dose that mean you are slowly leaking poop for a couple of hours after you eat? Lets say at a ball game is it easy to hide that your soiling your diaper. How easy is it change a soild diaper in the toilets? Would you be leaking poop and dribbling pee while you are changing?

If both sphincters have atrophied would surgery help restore continence? Thanks.

1 - Yes you would either be wetting & messing constantly either slowly while sitting/lying, or all at once as soon as the weight of your organs put pressure on your bladder / bowels. There is no conclusive answer to the results of your incontinence as it is all dependent on one major factor - your diet.

2- Atropied muscles / muscle groups can NOT be repaired by surgery - they are DEAD, but there is a surgical alternative - artificial sphincter that one controls from outside the body.

[tonysplace]

1 - Yes you would either be wetting & messing constantly either slowly while sitting/lying, or all at once as soon as the weight of your organs put pressure on your bladder / bowels. There is no conclusive answer to the results of your incontinence as it is all dependent on one major factor - your diet.

2- Atropied muscles / muscle groups can NOT be repaired by surgery - they are DEAD, but there is a surgical alternative - artificial sphincter that one controls from outside the body.

\

Cool, thanks.

[Pollyanna Fleshman]

I think that if you wear and use diapers 24/7, you're essentially incontinent anyway. Whether or not you "have control" is not really relevant.

If you wish to regain control, it may be difficult, but probably not impossible.

To our never trained friend: if you really want to be potty trained, never ever give up hope! I think it's a good idea to talk to your doctor -- I assume your doctor already knows that you wear diapers. He or she will probably be able to give you some kind of assistance. No, there is nobody to "train an adult" except for yourself, but if you really want it you can get there.

I don't mean to sound stupid, but how would I train myself if I've never been trained before? I'm sorry to ask, but I'm not sure how it could be done. My husband is responsible for my diapering care since I have dexterity issues. Perhaps, he could help?

Gosh! I feel like shit saying these things. I feel completely and utterly stupid. I'm probably making a fool of myself right now.

[NekoDude18]

Hmmm.... you assume alot of urologists hang out on this forum??

Lol... yeah you're going to have to look up a bunch of medical info... I'd try and use my limited knowledge from being raised in an environment which pretty much all the adults were doctors... but I'm too tired and I'd mess up... and somehow I doubt urologists hang out here.

[tonysplace]

I've been wearing consistently for well over a week know and can pee easily with the slightest urge in my bladder when I'm sitting in the right position with out clenching my sphincter. I just let it flow and tend to dribble with awareness. I'm noticing i'm waking up at night with a strong urge to pee (for which I have to stand up) only for a little bit to come out. I've mostly just been sitting in front of the television all day not moving and peeing with my sphincher open.

I was wondering am I loosing control quicker this way? How long will it take if I keep doing it like this. What to expect next?

[nappyboymids]

I've been wearing consistently for well over a week know and can pee easily with the slightest urge in my bladder when I'm sitting in the right position with out clenching my sphincter. I just let it flow and tend to dribble with awareness. I'm noticing i'm waking up at night with a strong urge to pee (for which I have to stand up) only for a little bit to come out. I've mostly just been sitting in front of the television all day not moving and peeing with my sphincher open.

I was wondering am I loosing control quicker this way? How long will it take if I keep doing it like this. What to expect next?

I wouldn't say 'losing control' yet but becoming much more relaxed and, if you do want to become incontinent, you're going in the right direction. Losing control is really when you move beyond that: either (a) get the urge to go but can't stop it, ( pee much more frequently than before but much smaller volumes,