Am I Intolerant ? Nearly Had A Bike Accident Yestereve...

[Eric D]

Hello Eric,

This is a good comparison. Usually I ask the waiter of a restaurant either for the smoker´s corner or wait, till my neigbors have finished their meal. Moderation is the key to success.

On Monday, I had a fuel shortage with my car. The other drivers would certainly not have taken me to the next garage if I had been dressed like a prostitute or gothic. I also did not force any medical talk upon them, just thanked for their help.

When I was in hospital, I took my pacifier while woman next to me was aslep.

Everyone should use common sense. I tried to test the limits myself, but the result is being laughed at, etc. Therefore I usally do not dress younger than 16, except for carnival (Rosenmontag).

Liebe Grüße

Kvetinka

Hello Kvetinka,

your examples are real life - and I like the way you handle things in that case..

we might have had our disagreement on other topics - but let me say, I welcome to see your opinion on this...

I might have misunderstood you in some cases in the past... sorry for that.

Well on carnival thats a different story - not much as a wrong outfit on "rosenmontag" - there's little which would cause any attention at all, and not much which has not been shown before...

Beste Grüsse

Eric

[Codymoogle]

but hell - I guess you missed the point here entirely.

I assume you missed mine as well, Eric, and I will not be beating the dead horse any more. We all have our views, I accept yours, and do not wish to change those views. I was merely stating my own, and disagreeing (peacefully) with yours. I will not be sucked into this flame war of a thread any more than I already have. I have stated what matters in my views, and have listened to what others have had to say, whether or not I agree with them.

This thread is a mess, and you really only have yourself to blame for that. The topic of "AB vs. DL" has been long debated and flame wars are all too often started from it, and that is where this thread was headed to begin with, I believe. So why ask, "Am I intolerant?" and start up the AB vs. DL argument in your own way?

And yes, it was my mistake for getting involved, but now I am rectifying that mistake and getting myself out.

~ Moogle

[Eric D]

I assume you missed mine as well, Eric, and I will not be beating the dead horse any more. We all have our views, I accept yours, and do not wish to change those views. I was merely stating my own, and disagreeing (peacefully) with yours. I will not be sucked into this flame war of a thread any more than I already have. I have stated what matters in my views, and have listened to what others have had to say, whether or not I agree with them.

This thread is a mess, and you really only have yourself to blame for that. The topic of "AB vs. DL" has been long debated and flame wars are all too often started from it, and that is where this thread was headed to begin with, I believe. So why ask, "Am I intolerant?" and start up the AB vs. DL argument in your own way?

And yes, it was my mistake for getting involved, but now I am rectifying that mistake and getting myself out.

~ Moogle

Moogle, I don't see where you take the idea of that I seek anybody to blame anything on it... so far the debate here has shown me a few points, although I have to say I'm appalled at what looks like a broad blind acceptance (Luckily not everyone here) of someone taking his fetish/alternative-maybe-non-sexual-lifestyle outside and into a quiet hood.

I didn't start it as an AB vs DL thread - and there's hardly any content in this whole thread of AB VERSUS DL ... it would have been the very same for me if it was a dude in just diapers... no binky and nothing. doesn't change a bit.

I started this post also with the intention to find what the community here thinks of this... and it had some personal content too, about myself thinking of having been tolerant enough, and yet find myself appalled by the sighting I had made. I questioned this, but to my disdain, some of the responses I've gotten here have shown such a high level of complete self-centered egoistic ignorance towards the feelings of "outsiders" that I got into the discussion deeper.

I stirred feelings, some good some bad with the post here - and don't get me wrong, I don't mind.

I don't think a debate amongst adults, even with very different point of views and all that is unhealthy... it maybe helps something or nothing at all.

but it ain't a bad thing imho.

if you can't handle that, or if you don't like to get into it then this be your decision.

but again, I'm not seeking to blame anyone here.

[Baby Bethany]

Have just finished reading this load of bollocks,

Yes,

Some people dress as a baby, some just wear diapers!

Some people walk around the street like it, some prefer to stay at home!

Some people are shocked by this, some are not!

Some people have a sex change, some don't feel the need!

Some people care about what other people think, some don't give a shit!

Some people have sex with someone of the same sex, some people the opposite sex!

GET OVER IT, AND MOVE ON PEOPLE!!

[Eric D]

Have just finished reading this load of bollocks,

Yes,

Some people dress as a baby, some just wear diapers!

Some people walk around the street like it, some prefer to stay at home!

Some people are shocked by this, some are not!

Some people have a sex change, some don't feel the need!

Some people care about what other people think, some don't give a shit!

Some people have sex with someone of the same sex, some people the opposite sex!

GET OVER IT, AND MOVE ON PEOPLE!!

this couldn't have been any more generalized and any more off-topic than possible. but it's a way to try to conclude matters.

[FretaBWet]

At one time in the state of Illinois a neo natzi group requested a parade permit so they could have a public demonstration. It was denied. There is no doubt that if you polled the people who lived in the area you would probably have had the support of well over 90% of the people for the ban. The group hired a Jewish Lawyer to appeal the denial of the permit and he took the case. Almost nobody in the community could understand why he was defending this group's right to stage a very public demonstration which was sure to draw a great deal of media attention that none of them wanted. His answer to them was if I allow their right to be taken away because I don't agree with it who's next? He understood that many times throughout history good people were persecuted by both societys and governments for no good reason other than they were different.

I know I preach tolerance but I also recognize that talk is cheap. I try to practice what I preach because otherwise I'd just be another hypocrite. There is no shortage of statements throughout this thread that I completely disagree with but I won't argue with them because I will defend to the end your right to make them. This is an example of my inability to control someone else's feelings and instead use my ability to control how I respond to them. I don't need to single out the people I disagree with. I don't need to say anyone is wrong, I just need to explain how I feel and practice it. Going along with the majority is just as often as destructive as going against the majority. So which way is right? I guess it just depends on the individual and the situation. There were precious few Germans who were willing to hide Jews from being sent to the camps and if caught they were sent to their deaths too. They were reviled at the time as traitors, we call them heroes now. The acts didn't change, the people didn't change, our view changed. All of us have things that make us uncomfortable. It's not wrong for each of us to feel that way at times. The problems start when we try to change someone else because of that so we will never feel that way. When I first started my transition from male to female I was not very passable. The reality is that you are required to live as the new gender for one year prior to receiving hormone therapy to prove that you are ready and capable of living your life. This is a difficult time for most of us because we don't usually blend in well. Some people take this as an in your face insult and we need to learn to deal with it. What I learned was that if someone has a problem with who I am it is by definition "their problem" not my problem. I'm being treated for my problem so maybe they should go get professional help for theirs. It's not a choice to stand out. It's not done to make others uncomfortable. I did it because I was uncomfortable and needed to correct that. I've never said I was comfortable with someone out dressed as a baby in public and never said I was uncomfortable with it either. I can however empathize with the person for they are obviously compelled to act this way otherwise they wouldn't do it. In the end I'd rather offer this person a hug rather than advice on how to live their life.

Hugs all,

Freta

[PampersPete]

I'm starting to wonder if Prince Eric hasn't seen his fair share of the world's worst humans......I know I have. If I was to get off work one morning and sit out on my porch while drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette and looked over on my neighbor's porch to see him fucking a sheep,I'd most likely yell over"I guess it's better to fuck the sheep before becoming one",laugh,smile and tip my hat to him......my point being"If you're offended,is it possible that you need to be offended?"

[Eric D]

I'm starting to wonder if Prince Eric hasn't seen his fair share of the world's worst humans......I know I have. If I was to get off work one morning and sit out on my porch while drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette and looked over on my neighbor's porch to see him fucking a sheep,I'd most likely yell over"I guess it's better to fuck the sheep before becoming one",laugh,smile and tip my hat to him......my point being"If you're offended,is it possible that you need to be offended?"

amusing at best

Pete, I don't need to justify my "share of the worlds worst humans"... as believe me, my list would be VERY hard to top, unless you have served in two different crisis regions on the world...

I've served with armed forces (non-US) for a little over 5 years - when it comes to evil deeds and the humans that are capable of them, believe me if I say I had seen enough for many sleepless nights.

But all that doesn't just make anything less severe than a burned body of a five year old child with his head torn to pieces by shrapnel automaticall good... or acceptable.

as I've stated before it's not black and white only.

and calling me names or stuff along that line only undermines your own credibility mate.

[PampersPete]

amusing at best

Pete, I don't need to justify my "share of the worlds worst humans"... as believe me, my list would be VERY hard to top, unless you have served in two different crisis regions on the world...

I've served with armed forces (non-US) for a little over 5 years - when it comes to evil deeds and the humans that are capable of them, believe me if I say I had seen enough for many sleepless nights.

But all that doesn't just make anything less severe than a burned body of a five year old child with his head torn to pieces by shrapnel automaticall good... or acceptable.

as I've stated before it's not black and white only.

and calling me names or stuff along that line only undermines your own credibility mate.

So let me get this straight...you've seen a five year old with a burned torso and massive head wounds but seeing some random dildo dressed up as a baby gets your panties in an uproar? WOW!

In the immortal words of Monty Python's Flying Circuses,".....And now for something completely different."

[Eric D]

So let me get this straight...you've seen a five year old with a burned torso and massive head wounds but seeing some random dildo dressed up as a baby gets your panties in an uproar? WOW!

In the immortal words of Monty Python's Flying Circuses,".....And now for something completely different."

you don't want to understand this...

if you've actualy taken the time to read my short post above - I said, only becuase I or some other people here have seen massive loads of evil thing it will not autmatically make me turn a blind eye on minor things...

it's not like once you've seen the far side of bad stuff that minor things don't trigger something.

and again, I still think, that taking out your personal alternative lifestyle - especially things that could lead to the assumption of children involved in the eyes of the general public should be kept out of a quiet family neighborhood... they have a right to have some peace and quiet as much as every one else... and I don't approve of AB or any other people who feel a need of pushing their personal private agenda into other peoples faces in the name of some weird concept of "personal freedom" that's all.

believe me I didn't have a sleepless night over what I've seen with that AB... but momentary it negativly amazed me that someone in that area does have the lack of modesty to go around like this in what I would call a peaceful childrens area. ... heck, my morals say this is wrong and indecent.

this has nothing to do with how much bad shite I've seen in life... maybe I didn't let all the bad shite i've seen turn me into someone who thinks anythin "less" doesn't bother me. There's little when it comes to "evil" I have not witnessed with my own eyes. There are things I will never forget, and there are things for which I find no words. Can't explain and will never understand how someone, even during war time, is capable of. I will for your own sake, not go into details. I don't feel like rolling up any war-stories.

My point is simple - and I had hopes that a general consesus about this could be established or would have already have existed: That people, especially those here who opted to go with an alternative lifestyle would have the decency, the discretion, the modesty to actually respect that others might not want this being shoved up their faces.

it's not asking much, it's not asking to hide, to change, to vanish... it's a simple call for some moderation. Is that so hard to understand? is it so hard to get the idea? do you find it so adverse to your "freedom"?

oh man... that's so sad.

Sad, that you think that only because someone may have seen so much shit in his life that same someone will automatically loose all sense of basic ethics and morality, respect and discretion.

I never thought it "shocked" me to see an AB - I said I didn't like the sight - there's a difference, a huge one.

I never claimed that I find it wrong if anyone wants to play AB... - I said I'd prefer it and would find it decent if that is being kept out of familiy neighborhoods and other places where this would be inappropriate.

that's all... but some guys & girls want to make a long issue out of it... I've got some time.... not too much work at the moment either.

and what's with all your "I'm gone, last post, last comment, now for something else" statements - something makes you coming back to this post and reply.... funny.

[PampersPete]

you don't want to understand this...

if you've actualy taken the time to read my short post above - I said, only becuase I or some other people here have seen massive loads of evil thing it will not autmatically make me turn a blind eye on minor things...

it's not like once you've seen the far side of bad stuff that minor things don't trigger something.

and again, I still think, that taking out your personal alternative lifestyle - especially things that could lead to the assumption of children involved in the eyes of the general public should be kept out of a quiet family neighborhood... they have a right to have some peace and quiet as much as every one else... and I don't approve of AB or any other people who feel a need of pushing their personal private agenda into other peoples faces in the name of some weird concept of "personal freedom" that's all.

believe me I didn't have a sleepless night over what I've seen with that AB... but momentary it negativly amazed me that someone in that area does have the lack of modesty to go around like this in what I would call a peaceful childrens area. ... heck, my morals say this is wrong and indecent.

this has nothing to do with how much bad shite I've seen in life... maybe I didn't let all the bad shite i've seen turn me into someone who thinks anythin "less" doesn't bother me. There's little when it comes to "evil" I have not witnessed with my own eyes. There are things I will never forget, and there are things for which I find no words. Can't explain and will never understand how someone, even during war time, is capable of. I will for your own sake, not go into details. I don't feel like rolling up any war-stories.

My point is simple - and I had hopes that a general consesus about this could be established or would have already have existed: That people, especially those here who opted to go with an alternative lifestyle would have the decency, the discretion, the modesty to actually respect that others might not want this being shoved up their faces.

it's not asking much, it's not asking to hide, to change, to vanish... it's a simple call for some moderation. Is that so hard to understand? is it so hard to get the idea? do you find it so adverse to your "freedom"?

oh man... that's so sad.

Sad, that you think that only because someone may have seen so much shit in his life that same someone will automatically loose all sense of basic ethics and morality, respect and discretion.

I never thought it "shocked" me to see an AB - I said I didn't like the sight - there's a difference, a huge one.

I never claimed that I find it wrong if anyone wants to play AB... - I said I'd prefer it and would find it decent if that is being kept out of familiy neighborhoods and other places where this would be inappropriate.

that's all... but some guys & girls want to make a long issue out of it... I've got some time.... not too much work at the moment either.

and what's with all your "I'm gone, last post, last comment, now for something else" statements - something makes you coming back to this post and reply.... funny.

#1-Yes. Yes you are intolerant. There. I said it. Happy?

#2-People who live in glass houses,shouldn't be throwing stones...Judge not lest ye be judged....Any of this coming through?

#3-Not once did I say that I was leaving.

#4-It was a grown man in adult diapers being himself in HIS yard. Fuck the children. I'm so tired of the"But what about the children?" argument. It's played out. Kind of like this topic OUCH! Did I type that aloud?

[jenniebear]

Apology accepted and greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

I just checked that quote box against your post, they are identical.

Sorry, I have a horrible habit of doing that when people mention me by name.

I was far too angry at being somehow mistaken for a guy to even register any sort of joke.

Thank you for being so gracious, in all honesty i really shouldn't of been posting at such a late hour...that's when i tend to make stupid mistakes and i should know better... i would never wish to be insulting in this manner.

As for the quotebox and the post being identical...you are right...though i edited while you were posting it was what came later in the post and not your direct quote (i think we both edited a couple times while each of us was posting...i guess i need a built in delay or something...i can never seem to get a post right the first time it always seems to need an edit or two......again...stupid mistake on my part....

As for you being angry at being mistaken for a guy.....i can only imagine the stupidity of some people and am certain you have cause for that sort of reaction....i assure you with all sincerity that i do respect your choices and only wish you the best...

as for the joke ...while i have strong convictions ...... i also tend to be a "peace maker" or "problem solver"....it was a poor attempt at a little levity in what seems to be a very passionate and tender subject...

finally...

Haven't we been through all this before? This is a totally irrelevant, ignorant and disrespectful post. I know you say your tired and blah, blah. But, pay attention to what's really being said, before you vent your feelings.

Cuddles,

--heidilynn

heidilynn....i'm not sure what to say to your pointing out in such a manner how you feel about my post.

i've taken part in this discussion from the beginning and i most certainly have been paying attention to what's being said...perhaps i didn't have every detail correct in that Eric was on the bike...the AB man was walking.....but if this detail was truely a defining factor in this topic....then i'd have to be the first to admit that i truely haven't been paying enough attention..........i can assure you however that if i wasn't paying so much attention i wouldn't be responding in so often and with such passion.

If you feel my post is irrelevant...perhaps you should go to the original post that began this thread.

If you feel my post is ignorant... well then perhaps you don't feel i am as intelligent as you...but fortunately... as has been discussed in this thread i do have the right to express my thoughts ... as ignorant as they may seem to you....

as for being disrespectful....i apologized to Jessica immediately and if you knew me at all you'd know that i am a sincere and earnest person...i don't say what i don't mean...but then again i am not above making an honest mistake for which i will own up to in every case!

i might challenge Jessica or anyone else for that manner on a topic of interest... but i would only do it respectfully and without malice....i certainly wouldn't intentionally insult her....

she hasn't done anything to offend me .... i find her posts interesting and actually despite our differences i often see similarities or traits that i'd guess we have in common....

so for your comment i find it questionable as to its purpose other then to reprimand me for my own stupidity....in which case....no one will do this as thoroughly as i will myself so please save yourself the effort in the future....

o and also thank you Eric for your support...it was much appreciated...

sincerely,

jenniebear

[Guest]

DW - you deliver a great example here...

that is part of what I think:

Are you so insecure?

You crave for an enormous piece of public acceptance... you basically scream at people (even if they did it by mistake) that you're a GIRL... You're A GIRL.

for what it's worth, if you want to be a girl, that's fine. But in the same instance I give anyone the right to not accept it.

it's your own logic after all. or is it flawed? You have the right to become a girl, to think of yourself as a girl, to dress like one and even go and have the state change you gender-tag on a license... you ask for acceptance - it's your good right too, but it is anyone else's right to NOT ACCEPT YOU... it's a piece of personal freedom, isn't it? anyone else could say "Hell I don't accept you and your TG-Attire, and if you've got a problem with this, for all I care you can go and die." - I MUST REMIND YOU - THAT IS NOT MY BELIEVE - it is yours just seen from the opposite side, played on you. how does that feel? is it ok?

I don't think it would feel alright.

and again, I can not state this enough that if you feel like a girl (I don't claim to understand the physical & psychological aspects of your desire) then by all means - be one - but why must you take it two steps further and make it obvious that you're TG - make it so obvious that you want to be so different, why do you feel it's alright to shove this into someone's face...

Let's face it - if you're wish would ONLY be to be a girl, than be it. if you look feminine enough (or are skilled with outfits, makeup and whatever) than you'd just do that try to live a girls life and I bet 99% of the people wouldn't bat an eye. But you take it to the point where stand out like a red dot within a gray field. it's much, much harder to find acceptance on a broad level if you are pushing your agenda.

The question is WHAT is it you want?

The moment people accept you fully for what you are, without question or doubt you'll go "under" you'll no longer be the red spot on a gray patch... But if standing out and promoting conflict is what you opt for (which stands in a dire contrast to being accepted) then you act on a different purpose - and to go then as far and call for acceptance whilst you're not even willing to act a little discrete at times when it would be the ethic and general consensus to do so is asking for "trouble".

But I guess in the end, standing out and being someone "special" by all means necessary is what you're after.

it's like with those publicity hungry poor people who feel the need to talk about their problems to the whole telly-world on one of those fucked up talk shows because they mostly are starved of attention, because otherwise their life is pale.

I rarely wear suits and all that... but when I attended my grand mothers (she was rather conservative, and so are most of her still alive friends of that time) funeral I decided to wear a classic, nice fitting dark coloured suit instead of my usual less "strict" outfit... Why did I "conform"? Did it harm myself? Did it interfere with my personality? Did it hinder myself from being me? No it didn't.

And with "conforming" to what was expected I helped to not to stir up the already sad feelings of most of her old friends who knew me from the day I was a very small child. it is not the place and time to be "rebellious" or "to fall out of the line" - a funeral like many other things are social institutions - if at your funeral you wish people to be funky, than that's another story.

But at my grand mothers funeral it was a "classic" thing... and I would have been upset myself if people would not have had the dignity to respect some basic social manners.

if you're strong, you would have no problem to "put yourself back a little" instead of going all "Look this is who I am"... because being discrete once in a while when it's appropriate by a general ethic consens within society doesn't hurt or destroy you - actually quite the opposite - it would help to manifest acceptance, tolerance and some peace.

And like many I believe a person who is able to not put him/her-self "into the centre of attention" is stronger indeed.

---

Why do I get so upset at being called he or sir?

Well, Jennie doesn't get called he, my mom doesn't get called he, my sis doesn't get called he, and neither does the lady down the street.

Accept? What is there to accept? The medical profession has already determined it's a birth defect. My brain is female. I'll be happy to let you cut it open yourself when it's time for my autopsy. To not accept that is insane. It's like not accepting that some people are born with missing fingers, or with internal organs reversed. It's a birth defect. What, we going to start complaining when people born with no legs want a wheelchair ramp, because we're just going to not accept their birth defect? "Ramp? Just get up and fucking walk!"

My goal is not to be A girl, I am THIS girl, ME.

Not some Jane Smith, but ME. I don't want to put myself back a little, and I shouldn't have to.

It's got nothing to do with wanting to be the center of attention, it's ALL about wanting to be myself. If suddenly, my whole town was exactly like me, TG, vegan, diapers, all of it... I would not be or act any different than I do today. I am me, and that is all I will ever be.

If I don't be myself, then who would I be?

[Guest]

Then let me ask you one last thing too should you happen to read this:

what exactly makes you sad and angered? Is it that some people ask for a bit of discretion, respect, moderation and acceptance??

Oh, common - it is not so far fetched that the broad public is not "into" such things as ABism and DLism - so why is it wrong NOT TO SHOVE it up their faces??

but hell - I guess you missed the point here entirely.

Not shoving anything in any faces.

Putting a paci in MY mouth, or dressing MY body a certain way isn't shoving anything anywhere.

I'm not walking up to a cashire and demanding she talk to me as a baby, or making anybody do anything.

I'm not telling others THEY should be AB/DL. I am being myself.

Let me use an example. I HATE Microsoft products, and I think people shouldn't use Windows.

Now, if I wear a shirt that says "Microsoft sucks", I'm not shoving it in any faces.

However, if I stand in a staples and bitch at everyone who picks up a copy of Vista, THAT is shoving something in people's faces.

Although, it's an example of not shoving things... It doesn't apply here.

I like a pacifer. So I'd sit somewhere and suck on it, or wander through the mall with it in my mouth.

I like my wolf, so I'll carry him around. Maybe I feel like dressing childishly on a given day, I might do so.

Likewise, as the above example... I'll sit in a coffee shop using a laptop that runs Linux.

Now, if my Linux, my pacifier, wolf, or clothes bothers somebody.... I don't care, sorry. Likewise, I'm not going to flip out over the guy who's laptop is running Windows.

Yes, they're comparable. You run, use, and wear what you like, I'll run, use, and wear what I like.

Oh, and yes, I'd probably put a huge Linux logo on my laptop to express the fact that it's better.

Do I run Linux to upset anybody? No. Likewise, I only suck a pacifier cause I like it.

[Guest]

My point is simple - and I had hopes that a general consesus about this could be established or would have already have existed: That people, especially those here who opted to go with an alternative lifestyle would have the decency, the discretion, the modesty to actually respect that others might not want this being shoved up their faces.

it's not asking much, it's not asking to hide, to change, to vanish... it's a simple call for some moderation. Is that so hard to understand? is it so hard to get the idea? do you find it so adverse to your "freedom"?

Going to say it again...

Just wearing clothes you like, and using objects you like, is not shoving anything in anybody's face.

I find this comparable to when a gay guy gives his boyfriend a peck on the cheek and people complain they're shoving it in everyone's face. Nope, they're just living their life. It's different than yours, get over it and move on... or even turn away if you find it so horrible.

[Guest]

As for you being angry at being mistaken for a guy.....i can only imagine the stupidity of some people and am certain you have cause for that sort of reaction....i assure you with all sincerity that i do respect your choices and only wish you the best...

You apologized, I believe you were sincere.

We're good hun. *hugs*

[gweg]

Ok, I can guarantee you if in that neighborhood I'd go from house to house, nock on each door and ask them whether they are happy having that AB Dude walking around, I get at aleast a 99.95% response in the line of "not happy".

yes it is of course my fault that I don't like things shoved into my face..

I still think it's over the line, over the edge and again, why is it so difficult to be a little bit discrete, a little bit more moderate esspecially in a family hood... eh?

I never asked anyone being an AB to stop what he's or she's doing... just respect that most non-AB will find it gross or weird or out of the line - I don't say you need to stop or conform, but respect others in their wish not to have to deal with it in a family neighborhood...

I direly fail to see why understanding this is such a difficult task and has been taken so personally by many here - mostly by the TG "community" here...

Well by that same token you could also go to every house on the block and ask the question whether this AB guy hurt any of them and I bet 99% would say no to that too. It still doesn't mean this guy is wrong to be out and about in his aparently wanted or needed attire. Today we need to except tolerance for our fellow woman/man...

[Eric D]

#1-Yes. Yes you are intolerant. There. I said it. Happy?

#2-People who live in glass houses,shouldn't be throwing stones...Judge not lest ye be judged....Any of this coming through?

#3-Not once did I say that I was leaving.

#4-It was a grown man in adult diapers being himself in HIS yard. Fuck the children. I'm so tired of the"But what about the children?" argument. It's played out. Kind of like this topic OUCH! Did I type that aloud?

#1, if that is what you think, fine with me, perfectly fine.

#2 Any one out there can judge me by my own moral standards, I know I live by them and have no reason to deny anyone the possiblity to judge me.

#3 nitpicking.

#4 it was a grown AB clothed, visible diapered man - NOT - NOT in his YARD ... it was on a PUBLIC STREET.. which goes through a hood in front of family houses... makes a whole lot of difference.

if you want to partake in an argument, at least pay attention.

[Eric D]

Why do I get so upset at being called he or sir?

Well, Jennie doesn't get called he, my mom doesn't get called he, my sis doesn't get called he, and neither does the lady down the street.

Accept? What is there to accept? The medical profession has already determined it's a birth defect. My brain is female. I'll be happy to let you cut it open yourself when it's time for my autopsy. To not accept that is insane. It's like not accepting that some people are born with missing fingers, or with internal organs reversed. It's a birth defect. What, we going to start complaining when people born with no legs want a wheelchair ramp, because we're just going to not accept their birth defect? "Ramp? Just get up and fucking walk!"

My goal is not to be A girl, I am THIS girl, ME.

Not some Jane Smith, but ME. I don't want to put myself back a little, and I shouldn't have to.

It's got nothing to do with wanting to be the center of attention, it's ALL about wanting to be myself. If suddenly, my whole town was exactly like me, TG, vegan, diapers, all of it... I would not be or act any different than I do today. I am me, and that is all I will ever be.

If I don't be myself, then who would I be?

DW, don't worry, I accept that you want to be a female...

Medical issue: so far if I am still "up to date" the medical health community has not come to a general scientific consensus whether "gender identity disorder" has a physical or mental etiology.

As far as my knowledge on the topic goes, it is at least for now, the thing that there have been some studies but so far no definitive conclusion and common agreeable "output" of these studies.

Or to put it in more "human readable form": So far doctors have assest that there is a possiblity for a physical reason for Transgenderism, but there is also a lot of doubt and some counterindications to this.

So whilst they're are making studies, bulding thesises and all that stuff - it is still "out in the open" as to whether TG / GID is a purely mental, a purely physical or a combination of both with various possible "triggers". Also the studies so far, have found some evidence only on SOME subjects (test-persons) ... so it is quite possible that there will be many differences in each case, as far that for some it will be of physical nature and of some it will be of pure mental nature.

Please correct me, and point me towards the latest researches on that topic if you think what I've written above is nonsense... I'm fascinated by most things in human medicine....

With that above in mind, I think to go around and say: hey it's my brain is not yet a proven thing and possibly wrong (possibly).

but again, I don't need to dissect someones brain, if that someone has a strong wish to live a female, than by all means that someone should do.

but look at this from a different perspective - I'm not doing this because I think it is this way for everyone, but I call you out to try to switch perspectives for a moment... bear with me here...

I am not sure how clearly visible it is that you're a girl... I mean I've seen TG TVs whom I knew they were TV, but it would have taken a lot of very close up inspection to see they're are not a girl when it comes to some anatomical specs. Then again there are those who actually look quite male, have masculine posture and all that... and outsider who doesn't know the later person, has not much of an idea that it is actually a female. Mental or Physical - doesn't matter much for an "outsider"... it's both things which can not be assesd by the populus.

So the moment you dress up, and maybe don't have a too female physical look, and MAYBE are not skilled, willing, etc. to put up all the work rquired to style, dress and act like a "regular femal stereotype" (for whatever reasons) people will NOTICE that you're not female, that you're dressed up. Fine... I'm not saying that they should do anyhting wrong with you just because of it.

But go one step further, make yourself stand out bright (pacifier, wolf, dress-style, behavior,...) - and you will get attention (if that is your initial goal or not), and attention can be positive or negative.

The point here is, that by not moderating you force the people around you to look at you... and whilst you might be far from inaprpopriate, you can not ask of any joe out there to accept your actions and think this is something good. You might not be happy about this, but the VERY MOMENt you take the right for yourself to say things like "go and die if you don't like it" - expect people to be the same about you and don't even want to accept you for SUCH statements...

Read what kvetinka had to say earilier on this... considering her TG life I think she has chosen the best way, for all... I mean it's actions and ways like hers who actually will help society to realize, that there's nothing weird or wrong about it... but then again, she's a bit older and quite possible a hell lot more experienced in life-matters than you are (although I don't think age is the only contributing factor).

.... I myself want normality and do not want to be in the center of attention. My aim was to bend in and not to constantly provoke by appearing ambigous.

...

there is an old saying going somewhat like this: "If you sow the seed of poison you will reap hate" - I'm not saying you seed poison. But I say you have a huge influence on how society interacts with you.

You are the master of your own fate... and also in power of how your surroundings accept you (with a few, rare exceptions). it's up to you.

and about microsoft... well I'm not a big fan of how windows operates and of their price and license policy... but HATE? why should I HATE microsoft. Has microsoft ever done anything to HARM ME? NO - fucking loud NO. I might not like their business concept, or their ideology... but what have they done to deserve HATE?

I for one switched many years ago to Apple ... and am happy using Leopard at the moment. So what, some people hate apple.... why should I bother - I feel that the tool they provide me with does an amazing job for me and my work - it's the best working tool I've tried so far.

Linux... I operated few servers with linux... linux has it's purpose - but for me that's not the desktop. Most of the business oriented applications I need on a daily basis are not avaiable for linux, and there's no open-source alternative for these... so should I HATE LINUX and the OPENSOURCE COMMUNITY for NOT making what I NEED? hell NO... I admire the whole concept. so it's quite the opposite.

and a Server... hell no way to bring me to run MS-Windows on a Webserver these days, unless a project would require it... but I think it's an overprized solution, not a bad one, just horribly overprized and too ressource hungry... but why should I HATE microsoft...

I never got this... why hate them - for what? Not use their products, dislike their practices and whatever - maybe - but unless they did something to HARM YOU there is no real reason for HATE.

it's one more example to show me what type of person you are.

[Eric D]

I want to ask those amongst you who feel it's prefectly all right to go out in their AB Attire, LG Outfits, ... into a quiet family neighborhood something:

Imagine a funeral:

Would you go dressed up (AB Attire, LG Outfits, ...) to a friends funeral - well knowing that there might be persons attending not knowing you, and quite possibly being reasonably offended by your appearance at their beloved ones funeral???

Would you not find it more appropriate to "conform" to the "agreeable attire" for that occasion?

If not, well I'm sorry but it would be a show of disrespect and putting your ego in front of other peoples feelings in a tragic moment of their life.

I know this is an example - but it serves its purpose.

if you're willing to be discrete at such occasions, than why not realize that there are other places where a more discrete behavior might be quite more appropriate and appreciated?

think about this for a moment...

PS: I had directed this question before at heidilynn, but she had not chosen to reply so far, but I think the question summes it all up nicely...

[Mean Mommy]

Why do I get so upset at being called he or sir?

Well, Jennie doesn't get called he, my mom doesn't get called he, my sis doesn't get called he, and neither does the lady down the street.

Accept? What is there to accept? The medical profession has already determined it's a birth defect. My brain is female.

If I don't be myself, then who would I be?

Geh!

I...just....can't...avoid...this all out...brawl..

Too...much...wicked....fun..

There are no physical manifestations of gender that have been identified by the scientific community, Silly Billy Girl Head. The only way your brain could be female is if it has genetic code to grow a vulva and a baby. Likewise, that is the only way your knee could be female, too. But does that really matter? I think deep down we both know the answer is no. Science won't back your assertive form of expression, but science rarely backs anybody. Just like God. You will have to stand for your convictions alone, without either, just like everyone else.

Man, I feel kinda crazy in an obnoxious way. Hooray for this blood battle! A few years ago I would've picked a side and fought to the death. Why? Because one side is right and one side is wrong! Always wrong! Ah ha ha ha! But then I went a touch insane. I'm not kidding. And then, on that crazy plane of existence, you realize that Eric needed that adult diaper baby man on the street whether he wanted to see him or not. Things have to affect one another. Eric should be disgusted. The diapered man should be held in contempt. Eric's bike had to be hit. We cannot float through life utterly respected and undisturbed. We need things to grate us, get under our skin. That's how our best stories are made. So our lives dip and twist and generate meaning.

Also, this acid ROCKS!

(...that was a joke, people.)

[lilwetone]

Is there anyway we can drop this subject? I don't think its going anywhere at this rate, and it obviously not doing us any good.

[Eric D]

Is there anyway we can drop this subject? I don't think its going anywhere at this rate, and it obviously not doing us any good.

don't participate - it's that simple..

or file a formal complaint with the admin - and see if he's willing to do some sort of censorship.

[Saschadzg]

The medical profession has already determined it's a birth defect. My brain is female. I'll be happy to let you cut it open yourself when it's time for my autopsy. To not accept that is insane.

Hello Diapered Witch,

Thank you for that explanation. This is based on the latest research, especially the brain research in Holland. We could go further and dessribe TS as a cerebral intersex condition. Therefore, talking about GID (gender identity disorder) or F 64.0 (F= mental illness) is outdated and utterly incorrect and false. If one´s brain was hormonally influenced prior to birth, there is absolutely no free will. There is just one way to live, according to your hormal brain script.

Kvetinka

[Baby Bethany]

Geh!

I...just....can't...avoid...this all out...brawl..

Too...much...wicked....fun..

There are no physical manifestations of gender that have been identified by the scientific community, Silly Billy Girl Head. The only way your brain could be female is if it has genetic code to grow a vulva and a baby. Likewise, that is the only way your knee could be female, too. But does that really matter? I think deep down we both know the answer is no. Science won't back your assertive form of expression, but science rarely backs anybody. Just like God. You will have to stand for your convictions alone, without either, just like everyone else.

Man, I feel kinda crazy in an obnoxious way. Hooray for this blood battle! A few years ago I would've picked a side and fought to the death. Why? Because one side is right and one side is wrong! Always wrong! Ah ha ha ha! But then I went a touch insane. I'm not kidding. And then, on that crazy plane of existence, you realize that Eric needed that adult diaper baby man on the street whether he wanted to see him or not. Things have to affect one another. Eric should be disgusted. The diapered man should be held in contempt. Eric's bike had to be hit. We cannot float through life utterly respected and undisturbed. We need things to grate us, get under our skin. That's how our best stories are made. So our lives dip and twist and generate meaning.

Also, this acid ROCKS!

(...that was a joke, people.)

Te, He, you so evil MM!!

Beth