? For Bedwetters

[anondl]

I wet my bed most every night until I was 13.

When I was 4 or 5 I was put back in diapers for a short while.

My question is why was I (or anyone) taken out of diapers at night at a young age

given my 100% wet nights.

Is the theory that the discomfort of wet, cold sheets would discourage bedwetting?

Anondl

[nappyloon]

Your theory may hold some water !

As in the old days it was that sort of "cracked" thinking that has led to a lot of modern problems with us all.

[Don Davis]

Hi Anondl: Nappyloon is correct, even today the medical community is divided on what is in the best interest of the child. The commercial "Toilet Training" industry is divided. The early childhood research and education is divided. What we have her is failure to communicate.

As a baby born in 1932, my parents and caregivers did not have the counsel of Dr. Spock and the specialty of pediatrics was in its own infancy. My father was a pioneer in chest surgery and was already head of that department at Collumbia Medical school in NYC. Shortly after WWII, and while finishing his book, Benjamin Spock, MD, joined the Collumbia faculty as an attending physician and associate professor of pediatrics under the department chair John Dorsey Craig, MD who was my pediatrician from birth until I "graduated" to an ordinary internest at age 12.

My late first wife, Jean who some old time DPF members will remember, was a professor of early childhood development at Pacific Oaks School of Education in Pasadena, CA. Long before Jean lost bladded control with early-onset menopause, she advocated what today we think of as humane toilet training, first proposed by Spock in 1946. The idea is to only start toilet learning when to toddler's mind and body is ready. This was fought by old-fashioned thinking up to the present. Spock was aided by the proliferation of the diaper service laundry services during WWII. Once moms were not spending such a large protion of their day boiling old cloth diapers, they were not under pressure to speed toilet training beyond logical reason. With the decline in the cloth diaper services, the disposable diaper industry popularizes letting the child be ready for toiket learning.

Spock was not opposed to transition from pinned diaper to cotton trainers. Clearly no sane parent will allow a 3yo to pin his own diapers. Such a child can learn to slide training briefs out of the way to toilet. Spock never made up his own mind on the question does wearing a diaper itself delay toilet learning. Even the go-slow toilet learning advocates conceed the comfort factor from wearing familiar diapers. Their point is the raise babies to become contented healthy adults, and if the comfort of a diaper reqires another 3 or 4 years of diapering, it is a wise investment for future mental stability.

The medical profession largely conceeds the danger to patient health inherient to staying in a wet bed or chair. Before anyone starts toilet training or attempys physical therapy to restore damaged bladder control, the patient must be healthy. This is not disputed by sane people.

Each person is unique. By remote control nobody can evaluate the situation. The general first approach my experience suggests is a multi-profession evaluation when a child shows no sign of being ready for day training at 44mo. That is borderline delayed toilet learning and could be symptom of serious problems with development, or it could be a UTI infection.

The $20 term is "Secondary Nocturnal Enuresis" to describe a child not past puberty who suffers a loss of control while sleeping after a dry spell lasting either 12 or 16mo depending on the expert you ask. Like any incontinence there can be thousands of causes for control loss. Rarely is there a single cause. A whole lot of peer-reviewed case studies by the medical and psychological communities conclusively proves the percentage of people who deliberately wet to gain attention is statistically insignificant. Modern child psychologists concede no sane child wants the attention from wetting. However, the mind is complicated. A theory consistent with evidence is that in most cases, a child comes down with a simple illness that is hard to pinpoint unless you are looking for it, such as mild UTI. The kid dribbles urine while sleeping and is horrified. Often a damp sensation is comforting. The child does not understand, is embarrassed to immediately tell a parent, and by the time the wetting is larger volume, the child does not mind being damp. When interviewed by a counselor the "does not mind" reply is charted as "likes being wet" which is next charted as "deliberately wets." The child is not a trained professional so give the answers believed will please the questioner. Communication failure!

My advice is everyone should sleep on a waterproof mattress and an additional silent, supple and soft waterproof removable cover should as long as necessary be part of every bed, certainly during college dorn years. Once we are used to sleeping in a protected bed, it feels natural.

The first thing to do when a kid resumes wetting is to get a check-up. Double check the waterproof sheet for holes. Buy some disposable pull-ups in the correct size. None are ideal in bed, but an ineffective diaper with a stay-dry layer between skin and pad is far healthier than contact of the body with urine soaked bedding. The diaper zone is able to handle urine that will damage other skin.

So what if the GoodNites, the new Attends Youth/Small Underwear or Depend Adjustable leaks some! That is why the waterproof sheet.

When the child was sweet talked into trying big kid special undies, a prudent parent adds that if this does not keep the bed dry, Plan B needs to start. Here it is complicated because the recent findings of all the leading consultants to the disposable industry show beyond standard Size 6 the unit sales do not support convenient stocking in stores. From 55 to 120 pounds it takes at least 4 styles and sized to correctly fit everyone, yet the entire segment is small. The only available tape-on to fit is the Attend Youth/Small sold only in case lots of 96 on-line and hardly ever in stores. Unfortunately this is ahold-over design going back to the P&G era. Sales do not support for additional R&D. That tape-on will snug in enough to fit a child under 50 pounds and is listed for up to 12o pounds at which size most adult products will work.

Disposable diapers are difficult to ship cheaply. Angela and I have hired a leading consultant to explore using the machines of a new South America disposable factory that is set up to better make short runs and can make diapers wider and longer than Size 6. P&G custom built their Size 7 machine but apparently that is its max. Also P&G has made it crystal clear they cannot devote funds to enter this "tweenie" market. Okay, we found a machine and a factory able to make what I think of as sizes 8 (55-65); 9 (62-80); 10 (65-88); 11 (80-110); 12 (100-130) It takes so many sizes to accomodate different body shapes.

There is a belief that disposable with feel/stay dry is healthier than cloth. Part of that belief comes from studies done my the Diaper Service industry in 1975. My suggestion is an nconvenient diaper is better than no diaper. Small quantity is no problem when making cloth diapers or plastic panties. Many sensible parents faced with a kid who returns to wetting and is too large for Pampers Baby Dry s6 or Huggies OverNite s5 turn to products such as Babykins Velcro diapers and vinyl snap or pull-on pants. Children as young as 4 are routinely changing themselves using those BK diapers.

The leading consultants we paid also predict the future is an improved adjustable fastener for premium baby disposables intended the child can use them without adult help. Just about every priduction executive wabts to minimize pull-up production that is high risk and low profit.

Comments? My new e-mail is: dondavis@live.com Don

I wet my bed most every night until I was 13.

When I was 4 or 5 I was put back in diapers for a short while.

My question is why was I (or anyone) taken out of diapers at night at a young age

given my 100% wet nights.

Is the theory that the discomfort of wet, cold sheets would discourage bedwetting?

Anondl

[D_Rainger]

Hi Don,

Very interesting discussion. You have some unique insights into the development of current toilet training theory. In this discussion we can't ingore the diaper industry's perspective. It is in their best interest to keep children in diapers as long as possible. There has been a poliferation of diapers in the past 20 years, culminating with Pampers size 7. I agree with the fact that there is a realatively small market for diapers or protective underpants past 50 pounds or so. We aren't likely to see Pampers size 8. On the other hand larger sized diapers aren't manufactured without investigating the market throughly beforehand.

I wonder if there isn't an "optimum window" for toilet training? Any time too soon or too late could cause psychological issues. There has been a movement recently to promote "elimination communication" as an alternative to the parent/child struggle that can result from potty training. There seems to be no general agreement in the scientific community. Why hasn't this area of child behavior been more completely researched?

Thanks again for your comments,

-D_R

[baby eddie]

I wet my bed most every night until I was 13.

When I was 4 or 5 I was put back in diapers for a short while.

My question is why was I (or anyone) taken out of diapers at night at a young age

given my 100% wet nights.

Is the theory that the discomfort of wet, cold sheets would discourage bedwetting?

Anondl

As I was small my Mom kept me into regular baby

diapers and baby pants until age 7. Then a brief

period of just PJ's with a plastic sheet that was

soon replaced with homemade AIO's with a terry

inside. After a another brief peripd with just a plastic

sheet those were replaced with youth diapers which

I used until age 18. I also sucked my thumb the entire time.

They tried along the way rewards, an alarm, restricting fluids,

shame, and making me wash all the wet bedding and PJ's.

*huggies* baby eddie

[dmavn]

diapers which

I used until age 18. I also sucked my thumb the entire time.

They tried along the way rewards, an alarm, restricting fluids,

shame, and making me wash all the wet bedding and PJ's.

*huggies* baby eddie

same here, Only I didn't become mostly dry till 19, lasted a few years, then I'm bak to wetting every night again. Have always sucked my thumb, 37 now, remember many times whil growing up my grandmother or whoever trying different things and coating my thumb with stuff to try to get me to stop.. didnt work. The alarm did more to wake the rest of the house, then me, and making me wash sheets and such.. my mother would make me get up suposedly and rinse it all out in the sink imediatly, unfortunatly, the next day I always had no recolection at all that it even happened.

seems to me that there is some large competition between the mothers with infant/toddler group to be the first to toilet train thier child first to the detriment of the childs needs.

[anondl]

Maybe I need to restate my question.

I never had an issue with daytime (awake) wetting.

I don't think that my bedwetting was "secondary". ie I was never dry at night and regressed to bedwetting.

So, why was I ever out of night diapers particularly at a young age such as 4 or 5?

If I'd never been out of diapers at night at this age it would have seemed quite normal.

So back to the question, Why would a young cronic bedwetter be out of diapers at night?

Anondl

[CDLover]

Anondl,

I'm about the same age as you and also was a chronic bed wetter until I was 9 or 10. I was taken out of diapers by the time I was 3. There was a plastic mattress cover but my sheets were wet every morning.

Why didn't my parents keep me in diapers at night? I think it was the sign of the times and common practice of how children should be potty trained. Children were supposed to be out of diapers, so our parents took our diapers off. The bed wetting was because I was lazy. Evidently they thought that diapers would encourage me to wet even more (if that was possible!)

So from what I can tell, they did what they thought they were supposed to do... Ages 3+ are supposed to be dry and not wear diapers, so no more diapers - needed or not.

I don't hold that against them, but I do not like that they shamed me and punished me for something that I could not control.

I hope this helps.

CDL

[Don Davis]

Anondl, there is no way to find out. Did you ever ask your mom? She might not be able to explain.

My late wife Jean crusaded for gentle toilet learning, and did so for several years before we married and started a family. While our oldest son Kurt and daughter Cynthia were toilet ready, I was out of town on business so much I only learned the results later, and I made a big deal for every toileting success. Our son Ian is much younger, born in 1974, so I was home most nights to encourage his toilet training.

Jean believed it best to use cloth diapers and trainers as children were toilet aware, because in cloth they could immediattely feel the wetness. Since the Dundee waterproof sheets she preferred had flannel on the outer layers and very soft rubber in the middle, on a bed under cotton sheets you did not feel them. Jean never removed the Dundee sheets, and none of our kids every worried they still had rubber sheets. Although all her kids did well staying dry, the way Jean gently explained being sick and just in case, they were not embarrassed knowing that Jean kept a central supply of cloth diapers and several of each size Gerber older kid vinyl panties. They never expressed any shame if they needed diapers for a few days in a row when sick, and none have ever indicated a liking of diapers. For Ian Jean kept Pampers on hand until he was too big, but until he reached puberty she had a stack of gauze diapers and Gerber pants in a discreet cabinet.

Anondl, I wish I had a way of going back in time and introducing your mom to Jean. Maybe then you would have been gently diaper at night.

Maybe I need to restate my question.

I never had an issue with daytime (awake) wetting.

I don't think that my bedwetting was "secondary". ie I was never dry at night and regressed to bedwetting.

So, why was I ever out of night diapers particularly at a young age such as 4 or 5?

If I'd never been out of diapers at night at this age it would have seemed quite normal.

So back to the question, Why would a young cronic bedwetter be out of diapers at night?

Anondl

[Creepymouse]

Dmavn: Sounds like you might have had a form of narcolepsy, your story sounds a lot like a relative of mine. They had a terrible time getting nighttime wetting to stop. Eventually he stayed dry, but even then, you could wake him up, get him IN THE SHOWER, and find him back in bed a few minutes later, and he wouldn't remember any of it. Turned out all of that was caused by a form of youth narcolepsy. To this day, if he sleeps more than usual, he finds it hard to adjust to a normal sleep schedule again, the more he sleeps, the more his body wants to sleep.

Makes me wonder about the children with 'Rip Van Winkle' syndrome. They tend to spend months, even years in a sleep or sleepy state, I heard about it on a medical show once. Children who slept through entire school years, and efforts to wake them with bribes or drugs or medical intervention only caused intense suffering. I wonder how toileting is dealt with in those families. If they can't wake up to eat without help, how can they wake up to pee?

[tndyperboy]

I was a consistent bedwetter until I was 10 and put in night diapers until I was 5. As this was early '60s I was taken out of diapers for the same reason as others my age have said, diapers encouraged bedwetting. It was thought I would wake up when wet (never happened) or was too lazy to get up, don't know who thought of that dumb idea. The last thing my parents tried was the bedwetting alarm, but by the time it went off I was soaked. My father was much more upset about the whole bedwetting thing then my mother, she just sort of took it in stride as part of childrearing. I used to think that as I was asthmatic it made me "too tired" to wake up but as my younger brother was also a bedwetter that didn't make sense. I was mostly dry by age 10 with the occasional accident usually when I was sick or had an asthma attack.

[himfan]

I wet the bed till I was 15 and have been back in diapers since I was 4 and I hated wet sheets my parents knew diapers were the best choice they tried other things like the alarm that wakes you up but that failed to wake me up and plastic sheets it would just pool up (yuck). The only reason my parents tryed these things is because they dident want me to be embaressed about diapers and thats probly why your parents took you out of diapers is to try not to embaress you but I could be wrong thats just my take on it.

[ballyhooser]

I've wet my bed almost every night of my life. I was made to wear cloth diapers and plastic pants to bed until my 13th birthday. I always said I hated having to wear baby diapers to bed but after I was allowed to soak my bed, pillow, etc.etc. all I wanted was my diapers back. I started back in my diapers at age 18 and have stayed there ever since.

[PaddedandHappy]

[stevewet]

I was a chronic bedwetter as a kid and slept in nappies every night until I was 8 or 9 and then at the insistence of our district nurse I was taken out of nappies as she was convinced nappies just made me too comfortable and gave me no incentive to be dry at night. After that I just had to endure damp and sometimes very wet smelly sheets. Being wet and uncomfortable had no effect at all in stopping me wet the bed in fact I was hardly ever dry at night before the end of my teens. I went back to nappies at 15 following a very embarrassing enforced visit to the doctors and subsequent referral to the continence nurse.

[oldwetter66]

[stevewet]

On 29/01/2008 at 2:57 AM, anondl said:

I wet my bed most every night until I was 13.

When I was 4 or 5 I was put back in diapers for a short while.

My question is why was I (or anyone) taken out of diapers at night at a young age

given my 100% wet nights.

Is the theory that the discomfort of wet, cold sheets would discourage bedwetting?

Anondl