Meidekind

- forgot to say: It's not so much that I have a problem with the products that are available. What really stings me is that products that were really helping me have disappeared or deteriorated as a result of the same marketing efforts that marked the arrival of whatever replaced them. If both good plastic pants had continued to be available I wouldn't have worried about the avalanche of discreet and breathable "briefs" (apart from environmental considerations). The thing is that the message "Here, have a Discreet-o-magic skin-loving Invisibrief Super Ultra Thin Air-wonder!!" always came together with "You must be barking mad to still use those horrible plastic pants and cloth diapers!" Or: whatever helped me has become very difficult to acquire because diaper manufacturers rather see everyone in their diapers as with reusable cloth diapers and plastic pants.

I partly agree. They indeed hold lots of fluids, but *only* if spread out evenly over the diaper. I've had a lot of leaks with them where only the part between the legs was soaked and the SAP absorber fallen apart into a couple of lumps, while a good part of the diaper at the waist ends was still dry. This won't happen with a cloth diaper: there the fluid spreads through the whole diaper. Re. 'easy to conceal' - at least for the diapers that I need overnight, that's stretching the meaning of 'easy' a bit! When I still want to go somewhere wearing those (visiting friends later in the evening, going out to dinner etc) I can only do so wearing a skirt. I've tried squishing everything in a jeans but it feels horrible and is very VERY visible. Plus, I couldn't even walk properly. Though that's also true to a degree while wearing a skirt. The daytime pads are indeed easy to conceal, especially when wearing a skirt. But that also goes for washable pads. Of course it's great if that works well for you! As you mention as well, everyone eventually figures out - or should figure out - what works best for them. For me that's preferably cloth diapers at night because I get much fewer leaks with them (plus a couple of other reasons). I found that large 'baggy' plastic pants work best / are most comfortable with those, and then there's bound to be some skin-plastic contact above and below the diaper. During daytime, cotton or disposable pads and plastic pants are my best option. With those there's also skin-plastic contact at the sides and the front and back parts near the waist elastic - the amount varies with the design. The thing is that this isn't a problem when the plastic is OK. If it's shiny plastic, it can be hugely uncomfortable though. It is an idea ... it would address the 'clinginess' of smooth plastic. I could give it a try, thanks! But because I find that smooth plastic very awkward anyhow - also how it looks and feels on the outside - I'd much rather avoid needing this solution altogether with plastic pants made from a good quality (medical grade) textured pvc.

Hi Waddlebutt, I think that your need to wear diapers is just as inevitable as mine is. The difference is that with me, it's a physical condition that creates this situation, while with you it is a very strong emotional need. Why should one be less valid as the other? The only problem that I have is with the sometimes very inconsiderate behaviour of some people in the AB/DL community - like what happened above in this thread. Maybe the sexual motive, being a strong emotion, fuels such behaviour in certain individuals. But apart from that it's got nothing to do with the need itself. Even if I can't understand what it is to have AB/DL feelings (or whatever emotional reason one can have to wear diapers), that doesn't mean that I would feel bad about it. There are many things I don't understand: some puzzle me maybe, but on the whole I'm glad about it. The world would be pretty boring if everyone would feel the same as I do. So, thanks for your suggestions. I hope others will do the same! PS - re. "Trials and tribulations": it really isn't that bad, I can manage my inco quite well. I'm glad that I'm only enuretic, and even have periods with dry days. And strange as it may sound, I think it's easier if you've never been dry so that dealing with it is 'business as usual'.

I've never tried that, and I forgot the reason why. Maybe it was the narrow elastics in the picture as well. But I don't know what the material is like, either.

And that makes three I suppose that the reason for choosing sewing over welding vinyl is the initial investment. I've understood that the proper way to weld vinyl is using high-frequency heating (as in a microwave) and supposedly those machines are a lot more expensive than sewing machines.

Yes, I know those - you can buy them everywhere, even online shops here in the Netherlands have them. It's just that I had no idea that it was a grassroots development idea, and I think that's great! Just to make sure: do you know if he's in direct contact with the manufacturers?

Wow, does that design really come from a member here?? That's the most encouraging news I've heard in a long time! I even have two of that type of pants and I agree it's a promising design. It's too bad I haven't got the chance to judge how well it works because the fit is too much off: the legs are too narrow compared to the waist. For the "Japanese style" which also has those double anti leak walls is even worse; I can't use the bottom snaps while the waist has room to spare. Also, the quality of the plastic varies wildly between "quite OK" and "too stiff to use". I've tried to make contact with a couple of manufacturers on the Alibaba site, but none even answered. Because I don't know anything about business - let alone Chinese business etiquette - it may be that I forgot to include an essential phrase or whatever. I just have no idea; but so far it has been an exercise in frustration. I've tried to get information about this pant in particular: http://m.alibaba.com/product/906479870/product.html I'm very interested in this one because it looks exactly like what I've always worn as a child into adolescence, until I grew out of them. By that time they also stopped making them anyhow. It could be my perfect daytime plastic pant. But I've got no idea whatsoever how to obtain one to try out, if the contact email is never answered. Do you know whether DailyDi knows how to initiate communication with those business people? As I said, this is the most positive inco-related news I've heard in a loooong time. Thanks! PS is DailyDi the same person as "the Boss"?

Elaborating a bit: All four of us (my brother and two sisters) were raised using cloth diapers and plastic pants at a time that this was already on the way out. My mother thought that "pampers" were both too expensive and also unnecessarily prolonged potty-training because of the emphasis on "keeping the baby dry". She wondered what kind of incentive the child had to become dry if it didn't feel if it was wet in the first place? Of course that didn't work with me, but my siblings were all out of diapers at their second birthday. I don't know if she was completely right, but I've always felt that disposable (baby) diapers weren't primarily produced with the customer's interest in mind but - as corporations go - to sell as many diapers as possible. Of course they were hugely successful because, let's face it, disposables do mean less work for parents. And the same thing happened with the inco market, of course. I will never forget the chat I had, somewhere around 1994, with the pharmacist (then our supplier) who told me "This adult diaper market is going to be a complete battlefield the coming years ... you just wait and see." Of course it's nothing extraordinary. This happens all over the place, with all companies in all sectors: our celebrated capitalist system! Still, I've always felt that it's especially poignant in this case because the corporate's striving to maximise profit is usually countered and regulated by the Darwinian selection of customer choice. People don't like to buy crap so the manufacturer has to listen to customers in order to sell. The problem with the inco market is that this mechanism doesn't work very well. Or even at all. Incontinent people don't speak up because of the stigma surrounding our handicap. The only vocal group is probably the medical / institutional world, who don't use diapers themselves, but just put them on their clients. That's a very different perspective as a true user; of course nurses will welcome anything that eases their heavy work load. But the ones who wear them don't speak up. Even worse: they usually fail to develop even an opinion. I've been amazed by the inability of many inco people to escape the stigma's surrounding diapers. A girl comes to mind whom I talked with some years ago: even though she often experienced leaks she wouldn't even consider using plastic pants because "they are for babies". How stupid is that? Apparently it did not enter her mind that the reason plastic pants were seen on babies is that we share one characteristic with them I.e. being wet. Of course she shared many other characteristics with babies as well (such as the number of toes) but that didn't count. All in all, I believe that this makes us a marketeer's dream come true: a consumer group that obediently buys anything you throw at it, even if it's significantly worse than before. You just throw in some keywords that are associated with easing the terrible burden of being incontinent, such as "breathing", "air" or (shiver!) "discreet". (Inserted extra rant) Whoever has thought up this brilliant idea that incontinence diapers should be "breathing"? I'd think that that makes as much sense as drilling holes in a submarine because it's so muggy in there. It's insane. Yes, of course: "breathable", because breathing equals life, and we don't want no nasty chemical plastic, now do we? Breathable: it's really good for your skin, of course! Yes, please!! Give us breathable cotton-feel diapers, so that we can experience the rich clammy feeling of pee sweating through your diaper. Or better even, if you happen to be bowel inco! That's supposedly what goes on in the minds of the diaper marketeers. Makes you wonder if they ever do any real thinking ... The very last thing you'd want for a diaper is to be "breathable" of course. Despite Goretex and other technological tricks you can't go around the simple truth that whatever is really water-tight is also air-tight. And of course your skin needs to breathe and dry up. But YOU need to take care of that; you can't delegate that task to your diaper! So yeah, I can't say that I have much hope that the diaper industry will magically come to it's senses and starts to create what's best for is. That will not happen, at least not until the stigma surrounding incontinence disappears and we'll become regular vocal customers. My only hope is to find better suited products in either other countries (like, as I mentioned, Turkey or Brazil); to find a small-scale manufacturer with at least a spark of a conscience; or to start a business ourselves.

... and wouldn't it be great if someone was actually listening, too? Maybe someone has thoughts about how this could be communicated, and to where / who. I wonder if there'd be enough demand if a manufacturer would start producing these things. Of course we know how they stopped producing: because of the widely communicated notion that plastic pants were a thing of the past and all-in-one-disposables were the future. It'll be hard to do anything against that enormous economic tendency. Maybe it would pay to look at what's available in other countries, too.

Short tank top, diaper & plastic pants. I never wear anything over the plastic pants: it feels stuffy. When it's really cold, socks plus my old ballet leg warmers; they're long enough to cover the whole leg.

Re that swishing sound of textured plastic: I happen to love classic movies like Jacques Tati's "Mon Oncle". In there the mother of the family wears a gigantic tent-like nylon garment when cleaning the house. As Tati always loves to exaggerate sounds for comical effect, he also amplified the swishing sound of that tent - and it's exactly the same sound as textured plastic makes. Here's the fragment, I found it on YouTube:

OK - my experience in this area. And a rant First of all there's two very different kinds of plastic pants, used in two different situations. One is a "cover-all" waterproof protection over either a cloth or disposable diaper. Even though it's always used together with a diaper, It is a separate, stand-alone garment. Or, said otherwise: regarding function it provides just the waterproof insulation, separating the wet material of your diaper from the dry material of your bed / chair / clothing. This is a simple full-cut pant, preferably with welded seams and wide enclosed elastics. Snap buttons nice but optional. The pant should have ample space between the legs and forward facing leg openings. Also, something that practically no plastic pant features these days: the pant should be cut "horizontally oversized" so that the plastic material isn't flattened all the way when the elastics are maximally stretched. In other words: the plastic should have lots of vertical folds and creases even when fitting over, say, bulky diapers or what have you. Why? Because plastic that's stretched flat is awkward. If there's the horizontal leeway of those vertical folds, the material is much friendlier, as it were while still offering vertical support (for the diaper for instance). I find it hard to explain in words, you should experience the difference. The other type of plastic pant is more an "envelope type", designed to hold and possibly support a certain kind of diaper, usually a simple rectangular or hourglass shaped pad: usually disposable, but can be cloth too. In the Netherlands they used to be called "plastic baby slip". Said otherwise: these plastic pants function both as waterproof insulation between the wet diaper and dry outside world - and - as integral, structural and supporting part of the whole thing while the pad provides only the absorbent capacity. This explains why in this case the plastic pants are (were) a bit more complex than the first sort; but the pads (diapers) are simpler. These plastic pants are mostly of the snap-on type, and usually have a kind of inner pocket to fix the pad in place. This 'pocket' can be anything: from a short kind of flap at the front and the back that you should tuck the pad ends under, to a fully double-walled plastic pant where the inner one has an opening where it matters to allow the fluid to pass through. There are versions made from just plastic; or lined with cotton on the inside; or with some other sort of fluid permeable inner layer. I think some types used to have clips or additional elastic bands to fix the diaper / pad. They can look a bit institutional / orthopaedic with all the (adjustable) elastics, buttons etcetera. These pants are less roomy than the "cover all" plastic pants because they need to properly support the pad and keep it in place. Oftentimes the front part of the waistline doesn't have an elasticised edge, but a slightly thicker, more sturdy strip of plastic. This isn't necessarily uncomfortable though if the plastic is skin-friendly. A variation of this type is the Japanese Style pant offered by FuuBuu. It's got a handy Velcro closure attached to the back end, the front end buttons snap on there. Advantage is that you can open the pant to change the pad without it coming loose. They don't have a pocket thought. While the first kind of plastic pant is a necessity when using cloth diapers (and as far as I'm concerned, with disposables also, especially when using those silly cotton feel things) - I am a huge fan of the second kind. Why? Because it saves an enormous amount of waste, money and hassle. If you've got a really well designed pant of that sort you'll only need cheap simple pads, and a good welded pant is ridiculously easy to clean. The only downside is that they are less suited for heavy-duty nighttime use, especially if you're a heavy-wetting side sleeper like me. Although I have used them when nothing else was available, with a protection pad underneath to catch the occasional escapee droplets. And, if it's roomy enough, you could also use it as a stand-in for "cover all" type-all pants. But you can't beat them as long as you're vertical! Ideally I'd use the first type of plastic pant at night, and the other one in daytime. If you use a thin pad in one it's quite inconspicuous. Another thing that I find hugely important is the surface texture of the plastic. It seems that some people favour totally smooth plastic, but I can't imagine why. I find that smooth plastic horrible. It feels and looks awkward .. I feel like a cabbage wrapped in cling film in it. Furthermore, it clings to the skin because it tends to pull a vacuum, like a suction cup on a kitchen tile. My plastic pants were always made from taffeta-embossed plastic. It's a feature that I consider as inseparable from the archetypal plastic pant: the feel of the texture with the fingertips, it's very characteristic wheee-oo whee-oo] swishing sound (like a miniature high-pitched zipper). Of course I've grown accustomed to it, I daresay I even like it a great deal: I find it a cute and comforting sound. I suppose it's as close I'll ever get to a fetish Anyhow: there's of course a proper rational reason that plastic was made like that. And it's not to disguise a ramshackle pvc manufacturing process, as one online plastic pant shop states with enormous cheek - in a curious attempt to turn a disadvantage into a selling point. The pvc surface texture is applied to give the plastic a more natural, gentle feel to the touch and to prevent the vacuum-clinging effect of smooth plastic on skin. And it also looks a lot less plasticky. Think silk instead of cling-film. To choose in which of the two to wrap my posterior in, isn't that difficult So, why is sticky shiny plastic used? Why are seams sewn instead of welded? Why aren't elastics encased? Why metal snap buttons that tear the plastic instead of plastic ones welded onto the pant? Why the narrow knickers-style crotches? Why never a plastic pant designed to fit females or males specifically - aren't inco people supposed to have a gender? And why, for heaven's sake, why that horrible garbage-bag-PEVA stuff? I have got three plastic pants from Turkey, off all places. Bought them on EBay. Those are absolutely the only plastic pants that I have had since - I don't know - maybe 1993 that are made from proper, supple, gentle pvc plastic. It's not stiff, not sticky nor garbage-baggy but simply OK. I think it's more than a shame that so many inco people are putting up with inferior material, overpriced barely functional "discreet" solutions that serve none but the shareholders of the disposable diaper industry. Oh, and of course the shiny clown plastic pants so cunningly devised by those catering to a well-paying fetish crowd (no insult intended - but come on, prices are ridiculous, and the quality sucks like M$ Vista) Making a good plastic pant isn't rocket science. The knowledge is out there. They can do it in Turkey - and what I've seen, so they can in Brazil (too bad I can't find a way of buying from there). So why is it a forgotten art in Europe and the USA? End of rant

Too bad I never knew those. I think I once mailed them to ask if they shipped to Europe, which they didn't, so that was the end of it. But I'm not sure it was them. I know exactly what you mean re. "Cut like underwear". Sanygia from France makes that mistake, too. I don't understand that at all, because it seems such an obvious property to get right. Incidentally, if fluid start to pool anywhere I think the problem is rather that you don't have enough absorbency, instead of that the plastic pants are no good. Indeed, most pants are too low. I think it's good that you give your opinion, even if it's a rant. Or maybe especially if it's a rant: inco people do that far loo little, and that's why our opinions are usually neglected. I find that plastic pant longevity depends on two things: the thickness of the material - the thicker, the stronger; and whether or not they're sewn: with me, tears always start at needle holes. A good HF welded pant can last years. But they're very rarely seen nowadays.

All the times I've tried PUL they leaked. Admittedly just a tiny little bit: maybe "sweating" is a better word. Especially at sharp folds, where I could see the material was discoloured a bit. It never occurred to me that it made any difference which side you wear out. I dislike PUL, because it doesn't feel safe and dry altogether. Besides, I find it hard to clean. Where vinyl is usually really fresh & clean even after a casual rinse in the shower, PUL needs to be properly laundered. I don't know about ACD, but vinyl as material is 100% waterproof if visually intact. So if it doesn't have cracks or tears or (sewing) holes, it should never leak.

Hi Gnappies, True, I'm Dutch. I want to apologise for my earlier reactivity. However, I assure you that this isn't my default state of mind. I find politeness, respect and good humour very important - maybe even more so online than IRL, because it's so easy to misunderstand one another based on text alone. I don't say it by way of whitewashing myself, but I was royally angry because of what happened in this thread and got carried away. It doesn't deserve a price, I know that. I'll check myself thrice the next time.