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Don'T Know Why, But I Took It Upon Myself To Consider "Can You Be A Gay Christian?"


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#21 ForbiddenFruit

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:35 AM

I disagree, because I think you are mixing up politics with policy. For example, the Chick-Fil-A controversy has really nothing to do with anything.


Except Dan Cathy's statements were only the tip of the iceberg - because Chick Fil-A are so rooted in their (misinformed) position that they donated cash to groups such as Focus on the Family and Exodus International. Exodus. Fucking. International. One of the biggest 'reparative therapy of homosexuality' groups out there, and still going strong even though their president admits it doesn't 'cure' homosexuality and two of its founders came out and are now partners.

But hey, physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse are all okay when it's got a religion in front of it.
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#22 Diapered Jason

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

Except Dan Cathy's statements were only the tip of the iceberg - because Chick Fil-A are so rooted in their (misinformed) position that they donated cash to groups such as Focus on the Family and Exodus International. Exodus. Fucking. International. One of the biggest 'reparative therapy of homosexuality' groups out there, and still going strong even though their president admits it doesn't 'cure' homosexuality and two of its founders came out and are now partners.

But hey, physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse are all okay when it's got a religion in front of it.


but why does that matter? Does he have a super PAC? Oh, he is a donor of a super PAC. Him and a million other people. Until you change the campaign rules, you are squealing your tires. You can't really attack Dan Cathy without becoming a part of the politics and hence the distraction. It is not going to get you anywhere closer to your actual goal. If anything, you actually help your political antagonists. In addition, other groups will take notice of this fight and begin to see their own political gain. In fact, that is probably one the reasons Chick Fil-A got injected into this debate in the first place. The same goes for the politicians who promptly attacked and defended Chick Fil-A.

#23 ForbiddenFruit

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:30 PM

I see your point, but I wasn't exactly commenting on that, just pointing out that Dan wasn't just making noise. He puts his filthy money where his filthy mouth is - pseudoscientific, hateful, bullshit-fuelled ignorant harm.
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#24 thixk

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:49 AM

*Forewarning: I do not profess to know everything about christianity. I only know from my life experiences and lots of testing of my faith. I am a horrible and struggling christian, so don't take what I say as rules/laws I am only saying why I believe you can be a gay christian and what I use when test my faith.*

You can be gay christian. In fact, lots of people get the bible wrong, as there is no place in the bible it says gays are evil and sinful. It says in the old testament where the ACT of a man lying in bed with another Man is evil, and other instance where the ACT of a man and man sex is evil. But, that is the old testament and doesn't point out to gay people exactly (as he does with rapeist, whores, and the likes).
Here is where I think alot of conservative christian's skip in the bible it seems. First, Jesus says specifically that we are NOT to judge, and only God can give final judgement (so no saying gays are going to hell). Also, after his death, the disciples were often times directed to people and areas that were outcast and sinful. Which, would mean gays should be complaining about the unrelenting storm of christians supporting them and being friends. Finally, gays are people like everyone else. Thus, Jesus taught that we are to love and respect our neighbors.

But, nothing really stuck with me about treating gays with respect, as an athiest (later converted to christian before publishing his book) asking a professor of christian theology about free will. What he said was that God gave us free will to CHOOSE to follow him or not to follow him. God will respect our decisions, and will not force our hand. God will always guide us on a path he wants us to.

So, my conclusion is, if God respects our free will, we should respect other people's lifestyle decisions, even if they don't mold into the christian idea. We should respect people no matter what religion/race/sexuality they are, but always show them the path that God wants when they want to choose to go down that road.

#25 Darkfinn

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:39 PM

You can absolutely be gay and Christian. If we examine the teachings of Christ, which compose the core of Christianity, we see no reference to sexuality at all.

The only direct mention of homosexuality in the Bible is from the Old Testament book of Leviticus, which says that a man should not lie with another man as he lies with a woman. This must be taken in context... it is a warning for men not to make use of the services of male temple slaves, nothing else. Furthermore, the book of Leviticus was written as a code of living for members of the Tribe of Levi. If you aren't a member of that tribe, then the rules from Leviticus don't apply to you anyways.

We come to the New Testament and see that Paul mentions homosexual acts in his letter to the Romans. In this letter he is referring back to the book of Leviticus, as at that time the teachings of Christ had not been compiled into one volume. Essentially, the only Bible during Paul's time was the Hebrew Bible, the same one Jews had used for centuries, there wasn't a Christian Bible yet, it hadn't been written.

Let's focus on the core teachings of Christ and examine what he said being a good person was all about. Examine the Sermon on the Mount if you wish to live as Christ did.

Blessed are the poor, the meek, the sad, the hungry, the persecuted, the peaceful, the pure.
Woe to the rich, the gluttonous, the jovial, the boastful.
Don't hold a grudge.
Don't swear.
Turn the other cheek.
Be generous.
Love your enemy.
Do right because it IS right, not to gain favor with men.
Worship in secret, for God lives in secret.
Pray simply.
Don't store up earthly wealth. For where your treasure is your heart is also.
Serve God, not man.
Don't be worrisome.
Judge not, for you will be judged and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
Don't be wasteful.
Beware false teachers, by their works you will know them.


Heed these words and you will indeed be thought wise.



Nowhere in there do I see any mention of sexuality.

#26 AbriForm

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 04:17 AM

Being a bisexual sissy that is both Christian and not a proponent of gay marriage... yeah I tend to make everyone unhappy on this subject.

I get a lot of flack for the above at times, to be clear, I'm not an opponent to gay marriage either...

I do believe that Paul's (and in turn, Leviticus's) notions on homosexuality were, for the most part valid. God (in terms of Christianity) probably doesn't think homosexuality is the most productive behavior on the planet. The exact language can be translated in a few ways, but they all tally up the same.

I interpret it to underscore the sliding scale of humanity and sexuality; if it is a choice for you, lean towards heterosexuality, but don't kill yourself over it either.

This is why I think the millions wasted on stuff like Prop 8 (on both sides) should have gone to much more productive efforts, like feeding starving people. I think God is much more unhappy that lives could have been saved with that cash.

#27 dave_the_baby

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:30 AM

Well, I know someone who is Christian not because he's raised to be, but because the idea of God makes sense to him. He's also gay.
So yeah, it is possible. Just not for people who follow the doctrine of the bible word for word.


...of course, nobody does anymore. I can point out some lines in scripture NOBODY follows anymore, such as telling slaves to obey their earthly masters.

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#28 diapertime42

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:02 PM

On the other hand, it's probably not a good idea to go to most arab countries and say that you're a gay muslim.... They like to stone people to death for that.

#29 anned

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:22 AM

I am a straight christian deist.

When the members of some christian churches find out i am a christian diest the first thing you hear from then is that i am not a christian because i don.t belong to a church and don't believe in orgaised religian.

deist don't believe in judgeing someone on there sexual orentation or because they are a nudist.
in fact Benjamin Franklin was a nudist, founding father, and a Deist

#30 JDL23

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:31 AM

Speaking as a Catholic, I know that my Church teaches that homosexual desire is not a sin, but acting on that desire is. We urge gays and lesbians to be chaste in their love and to remain committed to God and their fellow Christians.

That said, I'm more progressive than my Church in that I don't see any reason to view homosexuality as sinful. Abusing love and sexuality are sinful regardless of one's orientation, so in my mind, a same-sex couple based on genuine love and commitment deserves the same respect as a heterosexual couple.

#31 Wet Knight

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:15 PM

The only direct mention of homosexuality in the Bible is from the Old Testament book of Leviticus, Chapter 18, verse 22, which says that a man should not lie with another man as he lies with a woman, the book of Leviticus was written as a code of living for members of the Tribe of Levi. If you aren't a member of that tribe, then the rules from Leviticus don't apply to you anyways.

Leviticus is not just instructions and rules for the tribe of Levi. Almost every chapter of Leviticus starts with "The Lord said to Moses, speak to all the children of Isreal". It isn't till chapters 21 and 22 that he says "Speak to the priests and to Aaron and his sons", who were the Levites.


Let's focus on the core teachings of Christ and examine what he said being a good person was all about. Examine the Sermon on the Mount if you wish to live as Christ did.

Blessed are the poor, the meek, the sad, the hungry, the persecuted, the peaceful, the pure.
Woe to the rich, the gluttonous, the jovial, the boastful.
Don't hold a grudge.
Don't swear.
Turn the other cheek.
Be generous.
Love your enemy.
Do right because it IS right, not to gain favor with men.
Worship in secret, for God lives in secret.
Pray simply.
Don't store up earthly wealth. For where your treasure is your heart is also.
Serve God, not man.
Don't be worrisome.
Judge not, for you will be judged and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
Don't be wasteful.
Beware false teachers, by their works you will know them.


Heed these words and you will indeed be thought wise.



Nowhere in there do I see any mention of sexuality.



#32 turtlepins

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:39 AM

Righteousness does not exist in the human heart, because we're all sinners. The problem, after reading through all the posts, is that everyone has something of value to lend to the discussion. All religions are the product of human thought, and therefore prone to bias, bigotry, ignorance, intolerance, and other gross inadequacies. I love Jesus. I hate my sinfulness. There's so much I need to deal with in me that I really can't worry about what you're wrestling with, and certainly could never accurately judge another person. But one thing I know. Jesus loves you, just as much as He loves me. I don't really think I need to say anything else. I know that Jesus loves me, despite my incontinence, my being an AB/DL, wanting to be a baby girl, telling lies, thinking bad things about people that don't deserve it, etc. So I love you too. If you're good enough for His love, I need to love you. I do. Luv and hugs, evybody!
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#33 mal

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:52 AM

If you are a christian then thatmeans that you follow the teachings of Jesus.
There for if you study the teachings of Jesus you will find no mention of sexuality either for or against, if in doubt go to the source teachings for guidance not someone elses reading of them.

Romans 3:23
Mathew 7:1

Just my opinion.
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May All Beings Be Happy

#34 littlehunter

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:04 PM


The reason why so many Christians are opposed to gay marriage is that marriage is a picture of God's relationship to the church. (to them, us) a marriage between two people of the same sex is a perversion (for lack of a better word) of that picture. Not saying that we should or shouldn't legislate our religion, but as you can see that is why there is so much opposition to it. Please don't go there with, divorce rate of Christians. No church condones divorce rates at these levels.

My personal opinion was, that all unions should be domestic unions under the law. If you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it. However, of lately, with all the "your a hater" and "if you have that opinion, keep it to yourself" the gay marriage crowd has shown themselves to be nothing but fascists and thought police. So, they lost some of the sympathy they once had with me. It's clear that this campaign is an assault on religion in general and has less to do with Mary and Debbie or Bill and Bob wanting Tom share their lives together.

First of all, I gotta disagree with your first statement. Some people like to draw this comparison between marriage and God's relationship with his church, but I have always found it totally irrelevant. I don't see how a religious ritual whose aim is to deliver God's blessing upon a couple (two people) could validly represent the relationship between the Creator and his creatures. You also say "if you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it", but you see we have just established that is impossible because the majority of Christian churches will not celebrate gay marriage.

 

Also, when you say that it's pretty much a church's right to decide the rules that its members should follow I think you are forgetting that "the church" is not just a board made up of a small number of people sitting around a table getting to pick which rules the whole religious community should follow. "That church" is actually made of of ALL the believers, and since there are loads of gay christian believers who would like to get married they should have a say too in the debate, not just outside of the church, but within the church, if they are active members of that church. I don't believe it's fair to just tell these people "well then you are free to choose another church if you don't find this convenient", because those people might as well be as fervent believers as any other straight member, perhaps even more.

Personally I didn't have a problem leaving the catholic church when I realised that the majority of them 'disliked' gay couples, as I don't necessarily see them as the only representation on earth of my God/faith, but I appreciate that other Catholics might not be able to do the same, and it is extremely cruel to leave these people with the only option to either live lonely for the rest of their lives or leave their religious community, without even trying to have a debate with them first.

 

The problem with organised religions is that they have become too much like authoritarian institutions, where someone writes the rules down and everyone else must obey. The people in the clergy forget that, last time I checked, there were no angelic creatures or divinities among them, therefore, since we are all human here, a lay believer has got just as much say on dogmatic issues as a priest, and a simple priest has got just as much say as the pope/ the archbishop of Canterbury (delete as applicable), and my interpretation of the bible could be just as valid as pope Francis'. So ultimately who are they to impose their own interpretation of the scriptures on everyone else and sell it as 'the Truth' and then use it to say that "Our church does not allow gay marriage, if you want that get a civil version of it".



#35 littlehunter

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:10 PM


The reason why so many Christians are opposed to gay marriage is that marriage is a picture of God's relationship to the church. (to them, us) a marriage between two people of the same sex is a perversion (for lack of a better word) of that picture. Not saying that we should or shouldn't legislate our religion, but as you can see that is why there is so much opposition to it. Please don't go there with, divorce rate of Christians. No church condones divorce rates at these levels.

My personal opinion was, that all unions should be domestic unions under the law. If you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it. However, of lately, with all the "your a hater" and "if you have that opinion, keep it to yourself" the gay marriage crowd has shown themselves to be nothing but fascists and thought police. So, they lost some of the sympathy they once had with me. It's clear that this campaign is an assault on religion in general and has less to do with Mary and Debbie or Bill and Bob wanting Tom share their lives together.

First of all, I gotta disagree with your first statement. Some people like to draw this comparison between marriage and God's relationship with his church, but I have always found it totally irrelevant. I don't see how a religious ritual whose aim is to deliver God's blessing upon a couple (two people) could validly represent the relationship between the Creator and his creatures. You also say "if you want a marriage (the religious institution) then go to your church and get it", but you see we have just established that is impossible because the majority of Christian churches will not celebrate gay marriage. 

 

Also, when you say that it's pretty much a church's right to decide the rules that its members should follow I think you are forgetting that "the church" is not just a board made up of a small number of people sitting around a table getting to pick which rules the whole religious community should follow. "That church" is actually made of of ALL the believers, and since there are loads of gay christian believers who would like to get married they should have a say too in the debate, not just outside of the church, but within the church, if they are active members of that church. I don't believe it's fair to just tell these people "well then you are free to choose another church if you don't find this convenient", because those people might as well be as fervent believers as any other straight member, perhaps even more.

Personally I didn't have a problem leaving the catholic church when I realised that the majority of them 'disliked' gay couples, as I don't necessarily see them as the only representation on earth of my God/faith, but I appreciate that other Catholics might not be able to do the same, and it is extremely cruel to leave these people with the only option to either live lonely for the rest of their lives or leave their religious community, without even trying to have a debate with them first.

 

The problem with organised religions is that they have become too much like authoritarian institutions, where someone writes the rules down and everyone else must obey. The people in the clergy forget that, last time I checked, there were no angelic creatures or divinities among them, therefore, since we are all human here, a lay believer has got just as much say on dogmatic issues as a priest, and a simple priest has got just as much say as the pope/ the archbishop of Canterbury (delete as applicable), and my interpretation of the bible could be just as valid as pope Francis'. So ultimately who are they to impose their own interpretation of the scriptures on everyone else and sell it as 'the Truth' and then use it to say that "Our church does not allow gay marriage, if you want that get a civil version of it".






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