36 replies to this topic

[Marcuss]

newborns are incontinent. Yes they have all the parts they need to be continent but they do not work the way they do in adults. Adults brains control when to empty the bladder but a newborn does not have the brain development needed to perform this function. As a result bladder control is handled by the sacral cord. A brief quote here and a link.

http://emedicine.med...453539-overview

In infants, the higher center of voiding control (the brain) is not mature enough to command the bladder, which is why control of urination in infants and young children comes from signals sent from the sacral cord. When urine fills the infant bladder, an excitatory signal is sent to the sacral cord. When this signal is received by the sacral cord, the spinal reflex center automatically triggers the detrusor to contract. The result is involuntary detrusor contractions with coordinated voiding.

A continuous cycle of bladder filling and emptying occurs, which is why infants and young children are dependent on diapers until they are toilet trained. As the child's brain matures and develops, it gradually dominates the control of the bladder and the urinary sphincters to inhibit involuntary voiding until complete control is attained. Voluntary continence usually is attained by age 3-4 years. By this time, control of the voiding process has been relinquished by the sacral reflex center of the sacral cord to the higher center in the brain.

[babykeiff]

newborns are incontinent. Yes they have all the parts they need to be continent but they do not work the way they do in adults. Adults brains control when to empty the bladder but a newborn does not have the brain development needed to perform this function. As a result bladder control is handled by the sacral cord. A brief quote here and a link.
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That is slightly incorrect. It is true that the bladder will empty by reflex action, but that reflex action occurs cause the child brain ignores the signals, and doesn't send the interrupt. The true definition of an incontinent person is one who has a failing in one of the methodologies needed to control continence. By definition, an infant is NOT incontinent, but is simply uneducated - or more correctly, taught to use diapers.

As I already stated, a infant LEARNS, by feedback - 1. The signal that it needs to urinate / vacate its bowel. 2. The feeling of evacuating itself. 3.The feeling of a wet/messy diaper - what the signals are, and tries to inform its parent etc of its needs by fussing etc. Most parents etc chose to diaper their child, and praise the child for wetting/messing its diaper. As a result, due to the teaching methodology invoked by its parents, a child learns to ignore the signal to urinate/vacate its bowels, and will use the diaper as intended. This action does not state that the child is incontinent, but it does state that the child has learned to behave in a way that suits its parents.

FYI, Marcuss, the Sacral Spinal cord, as stated, is the termination of the spine. It does NOT have the capability to make decisions. All nerve systems link to the associated muscles. It is the basis of how and why the reflex system works, which is vital for our self preservation. IE If you touch something that is hot, the sensation of 'hot' will loop back to the muscle controlling your arm, contract, thus moving your arm out of danger. This will happen before the sensation of 'hot' reaches the brain.

"The spinal cord functions as a long communication pathway between the brain stem and the sacral spinal cord. When the sacral cord receives the sensory information from the bladder (or any other connected nerve), this signal travels up the spinal cord to the pons and then ultimately to the brain. The brain interprets this signal and sends a reply via the pons that travels down the spinal cord to the sacral cord... "

Also, in very young children, the sphincter muscles do not correctly close. This causes the child to void constantly as soon as it enters the bladder / bowels. The sphincter muscles develop within a week or two from birth which allows them to close completely.

Thirdly, in children, as soon as food enters their mouth, this triggers the lower intestine to push its contents out in order to make room in its stomach. With weak/relaxed anal sphincter, or with a child ignoring the signal of filling bowels, the child will soil its diaper. As the child is toilet trained, it learns to reverse the movement of food in its lower intestine. This allows for the child to gain a higher nutrient level from its digested foods and eliminates the need to void as it eats.

[KittenAB]

Actually, Babykieff, there is a slight difference in the brain at that time, the part that does regulate such things isn't even developed at that age. So newborns are technically incontinent because the control is directed to a reflexive nerve until a certain age. I don't remember any more of the details myself, it's just not that interesting to me, but some non-AB/DL forum I use to work on I had to fact check this for another debate (something about evolution and such). Marcuss did a pretty good job of paraphrasing it anyway so I'll leave it at that.

[diapersdiapers]

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->13. Newborn babies ARE incontinent.

FALSE: The average newborn child has a fully functioning excretory system. What they do not have is the mental ability to understand what or how to react to their bladder or bowel needs. As a result, they fuss just before voiding. Most babies are placed in diapers and encouraged either by praise after the event OR ignorance before the event to void in diapers. Correspondingly, a newborn associates, due to no other knowledge, that they are supposed to use diapers for their eliminations. This is one of the earliest things that they learn, and why, in most cases, reversing this training is so difficult.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


So that means I can potty train my infant right after I have one?

Diaper Star - I love your signature!! Love that movie!!

[babykeiff]

Actually, Babykieff, there is a slight difference in the brain at that time, the part that does regulate such things isn't even developed at that age. So newborns are technically incontinent because the control is directed to a reflexive nerve until a certain age. I don't remember any more of the details myself, it's just not that interesting to me, but some non-AB/DL forum I use to work on I had to fact check this for another debate (something about evolution and such). Marcuss did a pretty good job of paraphrasing it anyway so I'll leave it at that.

Marcuss DID a good job of paraphrasing, you are correct BUT, he forgot the part that infants / newborns IGNORE the signals because of .... -

1 - they do not have the physical ability to go and relieve themselves
2- they do not have the reasoning to deduce that after voiding they will become uncomfortable
3 - they DO have the knowledge that they need assistance - and will fuss for attention prior to voiding.

If a newborn is taught to use a diaper either by praise after the fact OR by ignorance of the child's fussing, the child will accept, due to no other knowledge, that it is natural and normal to ignore the feelings, void in a diaper, and WILL pass bladder and bowel control to their autonomic bypass system. Their mind will still be informed prior and post effect.

Newborns are, by definition CONTINENT, since ALL of the mechanism works but lazy ignorant parental teaching has told them to ignore the signals. INCONTINENCE, by definition, is a FAILURE in one or more of the mechanism responsible for voiding.

Please, if you wish, check out the natural voiding methodology and infant potty training, which has been adopted in many cultures worldwide. It is only the so called 'developed world' that chose to diaper their children from birth - which is, in my opinion, a form of convenience for the parent at the cost of the child, as is bottle (formula) feeding the child rather than breast feeding.

In some cultures, the stink of a messy diaper is never experienced, since the child is breast fed from birth to 4-5 years of age, and diapers are not used at all. Even if diapers were used, breast milk does not contain the high levels of ammonia that causes baby diapers to reek.

[Marcuss]

"not having the ability to go and relieve yourself" is incontinence. To not choose when and where you void is incontinence. If you are stuck in a car and cant find a place and wet yourself. You had an episode of incontinence even if that is the only time that happened in the last or next 20 years. Just because a newborn does not know there is a better place to do it does not make them continent. They fuss when they need to pee or poo because they feel sensations. They dont even know what these feelings are for much less the ability to act on them. The fact that with out help no mater if they cry first or after they will void where ever and when ever they are defines them as incontinent. Also they do not wake up and cry before they pee they just pee. This is nocturnal enuresis and a form of incontinence. Those babies in other cultures you talk of. Yes they can comunicate when they are about to wet and mess. Should the parents act on these cues great. But should it not be a good time and or place.... guess what the baby is gonna go anyway = incontinence. I can tell you when im going to sneeze and knowing it or not if its gonna happen its gonna happen if i want it to or not....even if i want it too.

[babykeiff]

"not having the ability to go and relieve yourself" is incontinence.
...

Incorrect.

Direct Quote - General Dictionary
: the quality or state of being incontinent as
a : failure to restrain sexual appetite
b : inability of the body to control the evacuative functions of urination or defecation
Web Source

Direct Quote - Medical Source
Incontinent: Unable to control excretions, to hold urine in the bladder or keep faeces in the rectum.
This is the usual medical meaning of the word incontinent. Incontinent can also refer to a lack of self-restraint in the sexual arena or failure to refrain from sexual intercourse.
Web Source

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To not choose when and where you void is incontinence.
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Partially correct - To not have the knowledge WHEN you void / when you need to void is called incontinence. To not know WHERE you void is NOT incontinence. It can be related to mental illness of some sort, but in no way is a lack of knowledge of your location / where you are / where you void / voided related to incontinence.

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If you are stuck in a car and cant find a place and wet yourself. You had an episode of incontinence even if that is the only time that happened in the last or next 20 years.
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Incorrect - The event is classed as an accident, and not a incontinent episode. Reasons - You are aware of what was coming and what you did. Just because you are not organised / prepared to prevent the event OR unable due to circumstances to find a place more suitable does in no way state that you are incontinent. In the same way that if you mishear what someone said does not state that you are deaf, or had an episode of deafness. As an adult, you should be mature enough to anticipate every eventuality. You are aware that you will need to void at sometime. Does that mean that you go put yourself in a situation where you will eventually have to wet yourself due to lack of preparation?

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Just because a newborn does not know there is a better place to do it does not make them continent.
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A newborn is aware of its bodily needs. When it is too cold / hot etc, it will cry. It may not be able to communicate its needs to its parents using complex language, but it still will try and communicate its needs.

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They fuss when they need to pee or poo because they feel sensations. They dont even know what these feelings are for much less the ability to act on them. The fact that with out help no mater if they cry first or after they will void where ever and when ever they are defines them as incontinent.
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I presume you mean 'it defines them as incontinent' and not as you wrote 'they are defines them as incontinent'.
Still, as I previously stated, it is by response to the parents actions, that a child learns. If a child is not dressed in diapers, the child will learn, due to direct feedback, that when it voids it will be uncomfortable. Every child will change its actions before it voids. A sleeping child will spread its legs slightly to make it easier to void. A toddler will fidget before it wets, and some hide behind a toy / furniture before it voids. A younger baby, will stop whatever it is doing as it prepares to void.

[babykeiff]

...continued from previous post

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Also they do not wake up and cry before they pee they just pee. This is nocturnal enuresis and a form of incontinence.Those babies in other cultures you talk of. Yes they can comunicate when they are about to wet and mess. Should the parents act on these cues great. But should it not be a good time and or place.... guess what the baby is gonna go anyway = incontinence.
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This is called PRIMARY nocturnal enuresis, and it is a learnt response. Every newborn, within the first few weeks of life, will wakeup before it voids. Due to no intervention from its parents, will learn to void in its diaper. After this learnt response, the newborn will not wake to void, but will wake shortly afterwards.

Marcuss,
the inability of one being able to go to a location designed for excretory purpose is NOT termed incontinence. Please get your facts correct.

A baby has learnt, by its parents teachings, to use a diaper. A baby is NOT incontinent. Someone else has told it to use diapers and due to not knowing better, it complies.

An incontinent person is one who, due to injury/failure to either the sphincter muscles and/or the nervous systems controlling and managing the excretory process, voids by gravity and/or peristaltic action. It is not uncommon for an incontinent person to have to regularly catheterize themselves.

If a person chooses/someone chooses for them, to wear diapers / other form of protection to contain their excretions rather than to void in a toilet, that does not specify that person is incontinent. This is regardless of the ability of said person to get to a bathroom on their own volition.

[Bettypooh]

I have to wonder why the exact definition of incontinence concerning babies matters when the effect is exactly the same, save for that most babies gain continence in time. It seems a rather moot point to me on a forum aimed toward supporting adults who are incontinent. We are all different, grow differently, and have our own problems to handle in life which develop us to become who we are as a whole in the end. As someone who has had bladder control issues for my entire life, I have seen and learned a lot about how social influence plays into our lives concerning things we cannot help. That depth of knowledge wouldn't have happened had I not had these problems and I would not have become who I am otherwise. Yes, it's been a living he!! in some ways but it has also caused me to learn to tolerate and accept others who also cannot help the condition their bodies are in.

What someone calls a condition is of far less importance than how we come to deal with ourselves and others in life- I think that perspective puts exact definitions and names in their proper place. Our efforts would be better applied to more important things in life than labeling. Let us accept the gray area at the edges of all definitions and words and accept that they can never be any more perfect than we are, and obviously we're far from that.

Just my two cent's worth!
Bettypooh

[babykeiff]

Bettypooh,

I can see your point and agree to some extent with it. At times, there is no need to be so pedantic about exact definitions. However, I started this topic for a number of reasons

1- To help other members
2- To dispel some of the myths in relation to incontinence
3- To be as clinically accurate as possible so it can act as a reference.

These are some of the reasons I asked this to be 'sticky' so it can be easily found and is 100% accurate. None of what I posted is from my opinion, but rather from research.

Some of the information I placed has been questioned, but is easily proven by other members as well as myself. However, it is not opinion that has been questioned, but methodology. Marcuss, however, has multiply posted his personal opinion on what is a factual based thread. This topic is within 'INCONTINENCE MEDICAL' and not 'FANTASY'. Everything I post in this thread I try to be 100% accurate based on available information, and I will both correct and apologize for any errors I have made.

Yes, the site is based towards the fantasy AND the incontinent - those who chose to wear diapers / act infantile. This thread is NOT fantasy, and as such, here I am pedantic.

[*~Andrea~*]

interesting thread

[Kella]

I've always heard and I tend to believe that incontinence is not a specific disease, but rather a symptom of a disease. So when I hear "Long term incontinence is not curable" it's like saying whatever is causing or leading to the incontinence is not curable and considering there are many causes for incontinence (like there may be many causes for a fever or nausea) this statement can be, at best, partly true. And you can't tell someone they are going to have to wear adult diapers for the rest of their life is you haven't fully exhausted the causes for the incontinence. And who's to say what future medical discoveries might tell us about "curing" incontinence too?

[babykeiff]

I've always heard and I tend to believe that incontinence is not a specific disease, but rather a symptom of a disease. So when I hear "Long term incontinence is not curable" it's like saying whatever is causing or leading to the incontinence is not curable and considering there are many causes for incontinence (like there may be many causes for a fever or nausea) this statement can be, at best, partly true. And you can't tell someone they are going to have to wear adult diapers for the rest of their life is you haven't fully exhausted the causes for the incontinence. And who's to say what future medical discoveries might tell us about "curing" incontinence too?

Kella,

you are correct in that incontinence in some, can be a symptom of an underlying disease. However, when a disease causes incontinence, to do so, it has to affect the muscles and/or nervous system involved. The excretory process then reverts to become autonomic (pre potty trained). Nerve systems that are damaged don't tend to self repair, and muscles that are not used / growing will atrophy*. This causes the symptom to become permanent despite the state of the originating disease.

The Options - for the incontinent individual

Diapers
Cons - cost, need place to change, infantile feeling, need proper skin care, some people become recluse.
Pros - with time and patience, diapers although change ones life, they do not end it.

Medical Implant / bag etc
Cons - Cost, invasive surgery, may not work....
Pros - Less impact on day to day care than diapers.

Surgical Option - regenerative / transplant
Cons - cost, finding suitable donor, large impacts on life expectancy, dependency on drug, forced to live in a semi-sterile environment (recluse)
Pros - not diapers or a bag. In time, medical science may be able to create a drug that does not affect immune system.


1/ Atrophy is not reversible, however transplant surgery can replace muscle AND vein / artery , but the patient will be on a cocktail of immunosuppressive drugs for life.

2/ Fine nerve damage is not curable.

Yes, you are also correct, in that incontinence is curable - even with today’s medical knowledge, but to what cost - the costs involved not only are financial, but also in the quality and standard of life given to the patient. Transplant and immunosuppressive drugs can offer some semblance of life, but the quality of life is poor, due to the need of the patient to live in a semi-sterile environment, and the post-operative life expectancy is in the range of 5 - 10 years.

In my personal opinion, choosing to use diapers rather than other medical intervention is the only sound call after careful consideration of all the facts related to medical intervention. Yes, there are times that the dependency on diapers can be inconvenient, but with a simple (healthy) change in diet, foul odours are thing of the past. Most people state that long term diaper usage can affect skin etc. An infant wears diapers 24/7/365 for the best part of 2 years, and with proper skin care regime, should never have to suffer from any diaper rash or skin breakdown. An adult who wears diapers 24/7/365 who has a mature tougher skin should also never have to suffer skin breakdown. A baby's skin breakdown due to two combining factors - one the skin is fragile. two - the laziness of the person nominated to care for the infant. An adult's skin breakdown is due to one thing - lack of attention to detail - which is required. Wearing diapers 24/7/365 tends to focus the mind and force one to self organise - so one never runs out of diapers / creams etc... and when out, always knows where the nearest place to change one's diaper is, and has a clean diaper available to change into - including, if needed, a complete change of clothes etc.

Wearing diapers forces one to be responsible for ones own actions - rather than depending on another, or laying blame on another for ones own stupidity. This is real life, not a practice. If one orders a cup of coffee, one can expect the coffee to be hot, and if one is silly enough to spill the coffee on self, it is not the fault of the vendor that you burnt yourself with the hot coffee. Yes, in the US, it is the vendors’ responsibility to inform you the purchaser that the product you purchased might be hot despite the fact that normally, in every country in the world, when one orders coffee, it is reasonably expected that the coffee is hot.

The 'not my fault, it is yours cause you didn’t tell me' concept means that no-one takes responsibility for their own actions. This concept will create a world where people (sheple is the normal name, as a slang link between sheep and people - doing things cause everybody else is doing them, rather than thinking and acting for themselves) not only loose the ability to act, but to think for themselves.

Yes, Kella, it is possible that medical science might progress and improve in the future, but it is also possible the medical science will regress also, the latter being more likely.

* Atrophy - mechanism -
Once a biological device is no longer extracting relevant chemical (oxygen/ nutrients etc) within the blood stream, the blood vesicle that feeds that biological device does not remain clear - particles, normally cholesterol, get deposited on the vesicle walls. Over time, the vesicle wall narrows to the extent that it will eventually close completely. This causes the biological device not to have an oxygen / nutrient supply, ant the device will die.

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

I was in a car/semi accident back in 1998. I suffered multiple injuries including ruptured and buldging disks in my lower back which severed some of the nerves. I lost control of my bladder and feeling in parts of my legs and buttocks. I went through all sorts of tests over the next year and a half. I had 2 MRI's as well as the gammet of urology and neurology tests. I spent over a year in physical therapy. I am able to walk, run etc... and if I keep my weight down and lift properly my back seldom bothers me. The medical community would not suggest surgery as long as I remained mobile without too-much pain. I was told that surgery would not help with the incontinence anyway since there was permanent nerve damage. What I was diagnosed with is a mechanical type of neurogenic bladder due to permanent nerve damage. My doctor recently told me that my bladder has lost capacity (shrunk) due to the fact that I am unable to retain urine. I pretty much dribble whenever there is any build up of urine over an ounce or two. In a way this is a blessing since I never flood my diaper. It just gets wetter as the hours go by. At the advice of my doctor I tried an external cath for a while but it didn't work the best for my needs. I am an active individual and the cath more or less held me back. Plus the cath system sucked when I slept as I am somewhat restless when I sleep. After a few months of struggling with the cath and a ruined mattess my doctor finally suggested I try "absorbant products". Why they hate to use the term diapers is beyond me. I know there is some stigma against diapers for some reason. To me it is no different than a diabetic having to take insulin or a person having to wear glasses. It is just a part of my body that doesn't work like it was designed to so I take the necessary steps to manage it. I don't particullaily enjoy having to wear protection 24/7 but I've gotten used to it. Without wearing protection I'd become a hermit never going out in public to work or do the things I enjoy in life. I guess I am a diaper lover because diapers give me the freedom to live a somewhat normal lifestyle. I have the most understanding and loving wife any man could ask for. I still get down occasionally but she picks me up and tells me to get off my pity potty and deal with it. She is truely a gift from heaven.

[bobbiesueram]

Mine is medical I have spinabifada occoulta. I was a twin and my brother was a total bifida and died when we were 18. Mine was not has bad as my brother all I got out of it was no bladder control at all and very little bowel control. I deal with the bowel with enama the bladder is a lost cause with no idea when and were it will let lose.

[NaughtyHiku]

I also have spinabifida occoulta. I have no control over either my bladder or bowel. No idea when I need to go of if I have already gone. I self cath three times a day to handle the bladder control, and bowel control well thats not really under control much at all.

[babykeiff]

Mine is medical I have spinabifada occoulta. I was a twin and my brother was a total bifida and died when we were 18. Mine was not has bad as my brother all I got out of it was no bladder control at all and very little bowel control. I deal with the bowel with enama the bladder is a lost cause with no idea when and were it will let lose.

 

I also have spinabifida occoulta. I have no control over either my bladder or bowel. No idea when I need to go of if I have already gone. I self cath three times a day to handle the bladder control, and bowel control well thats not really under control much at all.

 

"Spina Bifida" refers to split spine. "Occoulta" refers to hidden, no visible signs of damage. This means that the common pathways of the nerve bundles within the center of the spinal column during development, has spilled over into either the internal body cavity and/or the space between the spine and the skin on the back. This can, in most cases, damage certain nerve groups. The result is that below the specific damage, reduced and/or no nerve control is being sent to the brain. The closer to the base of the spine that this has occurred, the more likely it is that below waist control is severely limited. This can affect continence, walking and/or balance, sexual function as well as fine motor control.

 

Using phisiotherapy, a paitent can be taught to stand / walk etc using direct stimulation of the relevant muscles. However, since the continence process is an internal muscle, direct stimulation is unavailable. Muscle relaxants in cooperation with time managment will allow the paitent to void from bowels. Bladder control, however is less reliable.

 

As a paitent gets older, each sphincter starts to behave independently. It is the behaviour of the external sphincter, which is usually under sub-conscious contol, that causes the main problem with this type of paitent. Associated with this is the internal drive of medical practitioners to get the paitent out of diapers, and reset the bladder control to somewhat 'normal' behaviour. This involves either self / medical caterization and associated leg bag, and/or an internal electronic sphincter. These have consistantly failed due to both either directly or indirectly introduce bacteria to the bladder, and create internal bladder infections and associated kidney problems.

 

There is a indwelling stent that has been succesfully used in cases like this, that hold the external sphincter open. As a result, the bladder voids as soon as it begins to stretch. - mimics an infants bladder behaviour. However, this is rarely used cause it forces the paitent to be diaper dependant. It is only used as an option if the paitent is already diaper dependant due to bowel issues.

 

Bobbiesueram, NaughtyHiku,

 

I strongly suggest, that if you are already diaper dependent due to bowel issues, that you consult your urologist about this procedure. If you are worried that this procedure will force you to wear thick bulky diapers 24/7/365 please let me tell you this, due to the bladder emptying as soon as it begins to stretch, you will be able to get away with wearing thin pull-ups during the day. Due to the fact that you will no longer need to caterize yourself, and that the bladder will only be open to the environment during times of voiding, the number of bladder infections will eventually be eliminated.

 

As I have stated on other posts, the associated smell can easily be eliminated with activated charcoal combined with cod liver oil capsules. The cod liver oil will also ensure that at a specific time after a meal, you will void your bowels, which means that this can be managed.