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I say an eye for an eye. Cut all of his sphincter so he had to sit in a dirty and wet diaper, then put him in a room he can't leave for the rest of his life.

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Our jail system is so broken. Inmates are almost NEVER go through any kind of rehabilitation, and upon release often go right back to their old ways.

It's also been quite proven since our very first writings that "an eye for an eye" is very effective at discouraging others from committing similar crimes. It does work, and much better than our current system does.

Got any evidence of that?

Here's how I see it.

Crime is at it's lowest level in history compared to population level.

At one time the convicted were sent to dungeons, remote prisons, or islands. Those approaches did not work as intended, crime did not disappear, and plenty of collateral damage occurred.

Over time society developed better ways, we do not need to go back to methods that have been shown to cause society great harm.

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I do in fact. Look at Mali. They have something like 10 crimes a year per 100,000 people! They also believe in the eye for an eye punishments. If you kill someone over there the family of the person you killed gets to choose their retribution. If they refuse the government will kill you much in the same way you did that person.

There is a trial, but there are no appeals, and the sentence is often carried out immediately after sentencing. Brutal, you bet, but also one of the safest places in the world to live because people will not risk the punishment, no matter the crime.

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I do in fact. Look at Mali. They have something like 10 crimes a year per 100,000 people! They also believe in the eye for an eye punishments. If you kill someone over there the family of the person you killed gets to choose their retribution. If they refuse the government will kill you much in the same way you did that person.

There is a trial, but there are no appeals, and the sentence is often carried out immediately after sentencing. Brutal, you bet, but also one of the safest places in the world to live because people will not risk the punishment, no matter the crime.

Would you live there???

Could you watch the local news and see stories of poor people stealing food to survive, get caught and then spending many years in prison while the family lives on the street?

Do you really believe their justice system makes no mistakes, or do you think sacrificing a few innocent people is worth it?

I can guarantee the relatives don't think so, and when mistakes like this are made more and more people develop a negative view of the system. In time the entire justice system will lose public support and fail.

Too many justice decisions are based on vengence, ideology, or just ignorance.

This is an area that we do know a lot about. Justice issues have a large body of carefully researched evidence that clearly shows what is effective and what really doesn't work for the long term goals that society professes to want.

Too bad we can't make intelligent decisions based on facts.

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Would you live there???

Could you watch the local news and see stories of poor people stealing food to survive, get caught and then spending many years in prison while the family lives on the street?

Do you really believe their justice system makes no mistakes, or do you think sacrificing a few innocent people is worth it?

I can guarantee the relatives don't think so, and when mistakes like this are made more and more people develop a negative view of the system. In time the entire justice system will lose public support and fail.

Too many justice decisions are based on vengence, ideology, or just ignorance.

This is an area that we do know a lot about. Justice issues have a large body of carefully researched evidence that clearly shows what is effective and what really doesn't work for the long term goals that society professes to want.

Too bad we can't make intelligent decisions based on facts.

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Our jail system is so broken. Inmates are almost NEVER go through any kind of rehabilitation, and upon release often go right back to their old ways.

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Ganhdi was actually giving his two cents on the concept which had already existed for quite literally thousands of years. Obviously I am not the pacifist he is and do not share all of his views.

I believe it takes both positive and negative re-enforcement if you truly want to modify a persons behavior. Much like spanking a child, the more severe the enforcement is the more likely it is to stick. At least that's just my view on the matter.

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It does take both. The punishment must be enough to cause that person to truly want to not make that mistake ever again- anything less will not work, because it is only after that when that person will begin to see the value of doing right instead, and that's when the positive reinforcement has a good chance of working.

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@Brian, Thanks for the response.

I do not agree that very little can be done about hunger. Promotion of a food system that maximizes efficiency in getting food to those in need, rather than generating profits would eventually have a big effect. Just utilizing the food thrown away would have a big effect on hunger.

I personally could not live under a system that refuses to acknowledge its mistakes.

Taking advantage of Mali's lower cost of living would only work if you made the money in a different country with higher wages and brought the cash with you.

Cost of living is relative to the wages paid in that jurisdiction.

The justice systems cost alot here, but at least we acknowledge mistakes and try to correct them.

Deterrence as a concept is fine, however in practice, it doesn't work.

Since our society seems to emphasize individuality, why would anyone care what happened to someone else?

The concept of deterence would seem to be somewhat of socialist element, yet it is most strongly promoted by right wing conservatives.

The very fact that our prison system has a population where over 50% have a mental illness, means we have failed miserably.

Obviously deterence isn't going to work on people that aren't thinking clearly.

Why do we pursue vengeance to such an extent that locking up a person who needs medical treatment, is acceptable?

Our society has past the point where the average citizen has more than a cursory knowledge of these complex issues.

We must trust and rely on people who devote their life to extensive knowledge and understanding of all the complex elements in specialized fields.

The time for opinion on many issues has passed. The facts are in, we have screwed up for long time, lets get on with it and fix the problems.

With the collective knowledge of all of humanity at your fingertips right now, it's not hard to find the answers. Hopefully, we can shelve our personal biases, open our minds, and accept facts.

In the past it was hard to find those few people who had devoted their whole life to extensive study of one issue, but not anymore.

I don't have all the answers, maybe not even a few, but someone out their does, and spent the better part of their life finding out. I just have to look that up. The future isn't what you personally know, it will be whether or not you can use the collective knowledge to make decisions based on fact, even if it contradicts your personal opinion.

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I can easily counter each one of your points yet again, but I'm starting to think your mind is as set as mine is. So what's the point, can we just agree to disagree and move on?

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I can easily counter each one of your points yet again, but I'm starting to think your mind is as set as mine is. So what's the point, can we just agree to disagree and move on?

No offense, but your examples make absolutely no sense.

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I'm going to try to not get into the convo about how the jail/rehab system works, but just wanted to post that as a paramedic that has responded to 911 calls in nursing homes, rehabilitation facilities, group homes, and even private residences....I have reported many people (nurses, random workers, family members, etc.) to the state for neglect and abuse of handicapped patients that need care. I personally can't stand to stay in a wet diaper for more than an hour at most and I have the ability to change myself....It's heartbreaking to see neglect with something even as simple as this happening. A wet diaper for a while can read to skin breakdown, which leads to rash, which leads to pressure ulcers, which leads to infection, which leads to sepsis, which leads to death. OBVIOUSLY, that's an extreme EXTREME example...but I've actually seen that exact process play itself out.

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Choctawboi, I've seen the same thing happen locally on the news here twice in the last year. The reporters did one heck of a good job showing doctors and dermatologists explaining how the lack of changing when needed had led to death. And they also had the local DA stating how it was criminal and that they would prosecute these cases to the fullest :) Which they did. One brother and sister who were supposed to be caring for their Mom are now serving 5 years each and they have been heavily fined. Thier case was particularly ugly because they were living wildly off the considerable family fortune they alone were entitled to without spending anything they could avoid to on their Mom who was left languishing alone in the family home. They could have easily paid for a full-time live-in caregiver but their greed wouldn't let them. Now when they get out of jail they will be broke, homeless, and stigmatized in society so much that they will have to leave the area. I think more jail time would have been appropriate but I'll settle for this as being at least the kind of justice which works :whistling:

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@brian sorry for the delayed response, working too much.

I believe you can promote efficiency, that's primarily what programs like the 100 mile diet are all about.

I did not advocate sending any food overseas, that would not be efficient.

How about sending people and resources to produce local food where it is needed.

You seem to have overlooked the effect price competition on food affordibility.

A developed country can easily outbid a less developed one resulting in food being exported for cash. From a country with a bigger hunger problem than the one the food is headed to.

Food is an example of a category where capitalist rules just don't work.

The people with money get to eat, and the rest can just starve to death. Not the world I would like to see.

The justice system costs alot due to rules put in place by the politicians.

Put the blame where it belongs, with the government and the people who elected it.

The judges are just doing their job, protecting the innocent accused.

If your goal is just to incarcerate any accused of crime, you don't need judges or court system at all, the government could just order their police to pick you up and throw you in a hole somewhere to be forgotten.

You are right, deterrence does work, but only on people who would only commit a crime if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught. If you don't see yourself with a viable future, deterrence has no effect.

When a person is not sure they will survive today, tomorrow is meaningless.

I cannot described any country that would lock up the innocent, with absolutely no recourse, as incredibly successful.

"most Americans don't have the stomach"

If most people can't handle the brutality, perhaps that's not the right approach.

Do we need to desensitize the entire population to state sanctioned death?

The true population of inmates with mental illness cannot be known with absolute certainty, there are estimates that range from 40% to 60%.

The real number should be Zero.

"Locking some up with a mental illness that killed someone else is though."

Wrong. Research clearly shows the mental illness caused the crime not the person. Treat the illness and the person is not a criminal.

People with mental illness under control do not commit violent crime as statistical evidence clearly shows.

You'll have to define what you think absolute justice means.

Yes, opinion is relevant, sometimes, when it agrees with facts.

We must be careful with what we think we know for sure, many times we have been wrong, just look back at the number of past beliefs we think are totally silly now.

If any lesson should be taken from the past, the best one is most likely, think long, hard and get more info for we are often wrong.

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