Tens Experimenting

[Bettypooh]

I haven't had time to play with this any further, but since s few on the "Close to Incontinence With a Catheter" thread expressed interest I figured I better start a new thread

I'm copying this part from my blog:

Many ages ago I discusses the possibility of causing incontinence with a TENS unit with several people here. Part of the motivation is personal- a way to make yourself incontinent without harm or permanent effects afterward. Another was that by using such a method, it would become possible for you to easily achieve remote control of your bladder- giving someone else the method and opportunity to make you pee whenever they wanted to with you being unable to do anything about it. I have not had time to cause the total effect I'm seeking but I did find that I can cause a lessening of the ability to control my bladder no matter how hard I tried to prevent it. I can keep from peeing with an effort for several minutes, then my overworked bladder sphincter muscle tires out and whatever is in my bladder comes out. Three times I tested this and it was always this way. Another thing I discovered was that almost nothing happens when the electrodes get wet- the tingling sensation this device causes simply spread out a little further but the effectiveness was the same. More specifics now.

My unit is a "MAXTENS 1000", with variable power, pulse rate, and pulse width. Plus it has 3 modes of operation; burst (where you get a single pulse then a pause), constant, and modulated (where the signal builds power strength over a short period of time, then resets to do it over again). Almost every variable is controllable and the owners manual tells you what effect each control does. For me to get the results I did required exact placement of the electrodes on my groin horizontally just above my unwanted penis with about 5 inches between the center of the pads. I feel pressure at these points whenever I try to hold my pee which led me to try them. No other placement seemed to work and moving a pad as little as 1/4 inch had a great effect on things- you have to get this exactly right. It took about a 3/4 to 7/8 power setting to have an effect which you could definitely feel- the pulses are strong but not uncomfortable. Higher settings didn't increase the effect but became uncomfortable. I used similar pulse width settings and again found similar results. I also found that either continuous or modulated operation worked in essentially the same manner, but I preferred modulated as being more comfortable for me. Continuous settings tended to cause a build-up of slight pain but not so much as to be more than a slight discomfort. This is a two-channel unit so I can ad another set of electrodes but that will be tried only after I perfect the use of two.

I believe that any TENS unit can be adjusted to accommodate this unintended purpose. The one I used to borrow from a friend was much simpler and I used it only on my back (it's intended useage) so that is the only comparison I can offer here- these settings seemed to produce the same effect there. I snagged this several-hundred dollars unit form Craigslist on the cheap. I've seen these sold on Ebay but the listings get puled quickly because these are supposed to be prescription-only devices, an stance I disagree with since they could cause harm only to a fool- I may partially fit that description for my unintended usage but I do know more about this matter than most so I felt safe in trying. I did take one big risk which I suggest nobody else try because it could be lethal- I wanted to see if it would stimulate my nipples without stopping mt heart which lay directly in the electrical path. Neither happened but do not try this yourself- keep this thing away from your heart and do not place the pads where any current might flow through your heart or you may wind up dead! Hey, I want to lose my pee but not for the last time as I'm dying! And so far there seems to be no reason to leave the lower torso area to get what I want so don't worry about me- I'm not trying anything stupid like that again.

Now that I have a basic idea of something which works my next attempt will be to refine pad placement and settings based on what I have found so far. I might do this today after I get some chores done. I should be able to get effect a lot faster now that I have learned as much as I have so far and I am looking forward to trying this at bedtime-it's effectiveness seems to be enough so that without any other influences it might bring on bedwetting in my sleep, though there is a brain-controlled hormone that stops urine production in your sleep which might have an even stronger effect. Regardless, I now have a new toy and I an having fun with it, plus it also fills it's intended purpose in helping with my back pain so I see it as being about as good as things can get in life. And once I perfect everything, it will be super-easy for me to add a radio remote control with a range which should be good for several miles in the best scenario but at least a half mile in the worst. Mmmmmm, now a toy like that would be a whole lot more fun- and two people could enjoy it!

Now for the rest:

I haven't had time to play with this any further yet. Nor can I recommend that anyone else try this- let me reiterate that a misused TENS unit can be lethal But for those who will experiment with me, I want to create a single place where we can share our research and results. This technique has a lot of promise because of how it affects nerves which control muscles, and as long as it doesn't have a detrimental effect on other unintended nerve targets I believe it could be safely used to induce incontinence. I have no medical knowledge about this beyond that of a typical TENS user who has one for back pain relief so we're on our own here. If there is anyone who can enlighten us about exactly where the bladder sphincter nerves are routed (especially where they are closest to the surface of the body) I would appreciate learning that here. My efforts so far are part intuitive and part understanding how the bladder works, with the intuitive in the lead by far. My goal is to electrically induce certain effects- any or all of the following: Inability or greatly reduced ability of the bladder sphincter to hold closed; pain-free spasming of the bladder to create uncontrollable urine flow, increase of urine production; but most importantly temporary incontinence results that cause no physical harm permanant or temporary, and which do not strengthen the bladder sphincter muscle. As an aside, if we do find that it increases sphincter strength this would be a boon to those desiring better bladder control, and we should share that knowledge with them too. This is something totally new as far as I know so any information you find will have value- share it all with us here!

And you thought all your science classes were boring- but not anymore!

Bettypooh

[J Y F]

The placement seems...very weird. The external sphincter is controlled by the pudendal nerve which runs in the back half of the body, behind the bladder. I don't see exactly how just spacing the electrodes 5 inches apart could make a significant effect, but then again I'm not expert.

I'm curious as to whether or not it's possible that the electrodes are simply over working the bladder itself and causing it to become overactive leading to the lessened ability to hold urine back. But if you're sure this isn't it, it's possible better placement could be found if the electrodes were put more towards the back.

I don't own the Tens unit and I'm a bit leery as to the consequences of doing this; consequently, I will not be trying it myself.

[Goerge]

I wonder if you can damage the pudendal nerve with this Tens machine. If you fry that nerve your basically going to be shitting and pissing your nappies without any control for the rest of your life....... How cool is that?

[Elfy]

I wonder if you can damage the pudendal nerve with this Tens machine. If you fry that nerve your basically going to be shitting and pissing your nappies without any control for the rest of your life....... How cool is that?

Not very?

I could understand wanting to lose control temporarily in certain situations, but permenantly? Living forever with it? To each there own I guess

[Creepymouse]

Thanks Bettypooh, I've wondered about this myself, but had no results on my last spurt (pardon the pun) of experimentation.

I've also looked for some research on the reverse of this idea: DETECTING the state of the bladder - is the sphincter tensed or relaxed? Is the bladder full or empty, or in between? I found an obscure medical note about using TENS and a set of sensors like this to create a biofeedback for helping people with incontinence, but no further information on where or how the device was constructed.

I'll help with the experiment if I can.

[Goerge]

I don't know what this Tens machine looks like but could it be possible to insert like a catheter up to your sphincters and give them a good zap?

[Loveable_guy]

First off many thanks to Betty for the great write up, very informative.

I have been playing with a TENS machine for several years with great success but not for wetting. I will offer one suggestion in that you can purchase round conductive rubber that can be inserted to a desired length. Check here for instable electrodes, http://www.peselectro.com/pescontent/index.php.

A tens unit used in your diaper can be blast also when you add condom over your manhood to act as an insulator. Otherwise it will ground out on your body or wet diaper, hours of fun.

Great thread, can

[Creepymouse]

I've heard tell of a pair of electrodes, a stainless steel urethral sound and a butt plug with conductive patches. Used in conjuntion, they're supposed to create a current directly through the prostate. I don't know how safe it is, but the post I read claimed it was mind-blowingly pleasurable. I would guess it would probably cause some pretty intense contractions of the urinary sphincter as well.

Turning up the settings too high simply causes electrical burns. If you use a correct setting for a longer period of time, you can 'overwhelm' the nerves and they just go numb for an hour or so, that's one way TENS is used to relieve pain.

I knew an older man suffering from complications of childhood polio, including a form of neuropathy. He had a device not unlike a TENS unit that was actually implanted, which gave him a small burst of electrostim in just the right place to alleviate the pain almost entirely.

[froggy]

I would rather not cause incontinence. Control of my bodily functions is generally handy. I still have the choice of wearing diapers and plastic panties if I want to. Both my parents wore diapers for need in their later years and hated it.

froggy

[Bettypooh]

Thanks for all the replies. It seems that some here may have glossed over my long post and got the wrong idea about permanence. What I'm looking to achieve is temporary- something switchable between normal and incontinent. NOT permanent. And at these power levels nerve damage should be nearly impossible.

To Froggy- I'm already having issues and am 24/7 which I am handling well.

To Goerge and Lovable_guy- I'm wanting external-only influence, and only on my bladder. Someone else can try those suggestions if they wish, it's not my cup of tea.

To Creepymouse- Thanks! Yes, TENS can cause minor superficial burns- I've done that with my back. That is why you're told to not increase the power once you feel much warmth where the pads are placed. I follow that safety rule.

To Elfking and Goerge- re-read my OP; I'm seeking a temporary reversible effect- not permanent at all.

To J Y F- Read below; I don't know for sure what I affected but something happened. I'm not asking the unwilling to try anything- I'll be the 'guinea pig' on this one. Since I already have weakened bladder control the effects should be more marked with me.

As I said, I don't know why I got the effects I did. I did try various placements along my spine looking for the pudenal nerve to no effect. That's when I let intuition give it a try. The modulated pulses from this thing don't just cause a surface current, they go deeper. Varying the power level, pulse width, and frequency all have an effect on how deeply the current travels. Like any electrical circuit it has to come from somewhere and go to somewhere- a circuit. And it normally takes the path of least resistance. I'm thinking that this is why I couldn't get an effect on my pudenal nerve- I could place one pad right over L4-L5, but the other one needed to complete the circuit couldn't be placed to cause the current to flow where I wanted it to. This is why I asked for some help with knowledge about nerve placement. With the current across my groin it may have spasmed my bladder rather than affected my sphincter, likely because the current affects nerves and muscles. But it could have affected the pudenal nerve too so long as it's located in the area- I think it is.

In closing I'll say that if you don't like the ideas I'm playing with, then why in the world are you reading the "Incontinence Desires" forum? There are many posts here that advocate permanent incontinence through harmful methods. Only the recent "Close to Incontinence with a catheter" thread seems to have found a way to temporary incontinence with almost no risks and realistic effect- I'm just looking for those results in an external way, and even more easily implemented and ended. And to another goal- creating a way to involve a partner who can turn your continence on or off at will remotely; something the 'cut cath' can't do. Yes, the ultimate ABDL interactive sex toy, something that will work on everyone unlike hypnosis and 'triggers' which do not. If you don't like this thread then don't read it; just close it and read the things you like elsewhere- there's plenty of other material on this site.

Thanks to all for the input!

Bettypooh

[J Y F]

The reason I'm skeptical about the TENS machine actually affecting the pudendal nerve is your point point about electricity traveling the path of least resistance, which means the shortest path when we're talking about the human body typically since resistance = resistivity(length/Area). I wouldn't think that resistivity changes too much throughout the body, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part. Have you tried putting the electrodes all around your sides instead? I feel like that could be one possibility in hitting the pudendal nerve.

Hm... I feel like a possible test to see if the electrodes are affecting the bladder or the pudendal nerve is to just insert a catheter into a relatively full bladder and turn on the TENS unit and measure the speed of the flow of urine out of the bladder and compare that to the flow of urine out of a catheter without the use of the TENS unit. The flow might even fluctuate with the TENS unit on, who knows xD? From this we would to some extent know whether or not the TENS unit is affecting the bladder or the sphincter. But...it would definitely be rather hard to control without adequate measuring devices.

I guess I'm just pondering ways of figuring this out with our limited understanding of the body, don't try it if you're not comfortable with it.

[Bettypooh]

The reason I'm skeptical about the TENS machine actually affecting the pudendal nerve is your point point about electricity traveling the path of least resistance, which means the shortest path when we're talking about the human body typically since resistance = resistivity(length/Area). I wouldn't think that resistivity changes too much throughout the body, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part. Have you tried putting the electrodes all around your sides instead? I feel like that could be one possibility in hitting the pudendal nerve.

Yes, I tried that but the low power wasn't affecting anything internal, only the nerves near the surface where the pads were. Resistivity varies, mostly due to moisture content which of course is higher inside of the body. That is why applying a TENS current from the outside works- the current path goes inside.

Hm... I feel like a possible test to see if the electrodes are affecting the bladder or the pudendal nerve is to just insert a catheter into a relatively full bladder and turn on the TENS unit and measure the speed of the flow of urine out of the bladder and compare that to the flow of urine out of a catheter without the use of the TENS unit. The flow might even fluctuate with the TENS unit on, who knows xD? From this we would to some extent know whether or not the TENS unit is affecting the bladder or the sphincter. But...it would definitely be rather hard to control without adequate measuring devices.

I guess I'm just pondering ways of figuring this out with our limited understanding of the body, don't try it if you're not comfortable with it.

I won't be cathing yet- maybe not at all, so all I can go by is what is an observed normal for me. But you're right- this would give as true a baseline as possible. And hearing everyone's thoughts is the point of this thread- with enough thinking and knowledge a clearer course to a goal is possible. The near future should bring me more time to play with this, and hopefully find an electrical path across the pudenal nerve from the outside that does not affect anything else. I did find some points that had a similar effect to the ones that seemed to work, but they were also triggering responses elsewhere- mostly my legs but a few made my tummy feel weird so I abandoned those for others.

I intend to experiment carefully and ask that anyone else doing this too be just as careful- we're dealing with unknowns and some possibly very harmful knowns, so if you don't know about the proper use of a TENS unit, find out before trying anything with it!

Bettypooh the Seeker

[Eir]

Bettypooh,

From the placement of the electrodes you described, it sounds like you have used TENS to release the perinium. (The perinium is the external sphincter). For normal people (non paruretics) the sphincter muscles normally work in a pair. Do you know if all TENS units must be obtained with a prescription:

I did understand that you were describing a temporary effect, thus my interest in using the device for classical conditioning of the bladder.

[Elfy]

Betty - My post was just meant for Goerge since he talked about using it for making it permenant. I know you and most others in here are going for a temporary solution

[darkravendl]

Using a TENS unit will actually make the bladder stronger as it forces the bladder and the sphincter to contract. Increasing the muscle strength not reducing it. The same idea is used in Urology departments to help patients regain control of an overactive bladder.

[Bettypooh]

Using a TENS unit will actually make the bladder stronger as it forces the bladder and the sphincter to contract. Increasing the muscle strength not reducing it. The same idea is used in Urology departments to help patients regain control of an overactive bladder.

I've got a TENS unit set up with two sets of electrodes pulsating through my diaper area. First vector from the perenuim to the low abdomen. Then another from the low left side of my abdomen to the low right side. Both are pulsing at 300 ms with a delay of 150 ms between each vector. I've had it going for 15 minutes and I'm dribbling urine constantly. It definitely works.

Thank you both for the thoughts! That's what I love most about DD- people here share so readily!

mndiaperboy19, I'll try this next since my unit also has dual outputs, but many TENS units have only one and aren't this adjustable. And darkravendl, I appreciate this. I have OAB and that's part of why I need diapers. I'm not really looking for a cure but many are so please tell us more since you seem to have knowledge about this. Others have asked if TENS requires a scrip- in the US it does, but as far as I know you're not going to get busted for having it like you would for having illegal prescription drugs- you just can't buy one OTC. I found mine on Craigslist but I've seen them on Ebay, where the listings get removed PDQ due to their 'no prescription goods can be listed' rule. If you do buy one there, I don't know if Ebay would back you up in a ripoff situation so you're on your own if you try that. With patience you should be able to find one elsewhere, and I would recommend that unless you have the money to spare you should wait till we find out how well this works for everyone. It is possible that this won't work for everyone or may have unwanted side-effects we haven't discovered yet- that's why we're experimenting, sharing our results, and asking for those who have more knowledge of how the bladder's nervous system works assist us. Aagin I feel I must caution those who are playing with us to know something of what you're doing because a misapplied TENS can be a dangerous 'toy' when misused. Now I need to find the time to try both sets of electrodes

Bettypooh

[darkravendl]

mndiaperboy19, I am glad that you found somehting that works. As with anyhting electrical be careful, you may experiance unexpectated results/side effects.

Bettypooh, I also suffer from OAB, The "procedure if you will calls for a small needle similair to an accupuncture needle to be inserted in the leg just above the ankle bone. Its best if the needle is placed as close to the nerve as possible as it sends milliamp pulses up the nerve bundle which connects to the bladder. The Idea is a combination of strenghting the bladder and causeing a reset effect so to speak. It did not work on myself but it has helped a better portion of people. The particular cause of my OAB i believe is to be blamed for the failure.

[wetman]

I don't know what this Tens machine looks like but could it be possible to insert like a catheter up to your sphincters and give them a good zap?

...comes with a depth gauge, so you can't miss the right spot.

[Bettypooh]

...comes with a depth gauge, so you can't miss the right spot.

Just to clarify- this is NOT a TENS unit though I'm pretty sure using this machine in the right fashion would cause incontinence too along with lots of pain! Experimenting being what it is, all I can do is recommend that experimenters use common sense (which is always in short supply) and remember that not everything you find on the Internet is for real Now, has anyone seen my sledgehammer?

Bettypooh

[wetman]

fpoilfport...

[Eir]

Bettypooh, would you be able to provide an anatomically correct diagram showing where to put the electrodes? Thanks!

[Bettypooh]

I probably could though as computer-illiterate as I am that would take more time than I have to devote to this. Plus each person is going to be a little different where they find the perfect positioning of the pads. As long as you are in the general area I don't know that you can harm yourself without knowing it's happening. You can quickly feel the effects of the TENS unit, like I did where I felt it affecting my legs. Then you move them a bit and try again- easy enough.

Still not enough play-time here for me to to try again yet I want to approach this only when my conditions are normal- ie no stress, no tiredness, and my bladder in it's normal state. That way whatever I find should give more accurate results- a more scientific approach Right now the sudden cold snap here is affecting me but I'll be back to 'normal' soon as it's going to be warmer the next few days. Last night I totally flooded without warning after being outside a few minutes just as I took a step, so I know this is not a 'normal' time for me- maybe tonight will be better!

Bettypooh

[anned]

I have never been able to lose control using a tens unit but once started the flow becomes stronger if you find the right spot.

The only time i have ever burned my self was when i put the electrodes to close together.

I got my tens unit at a thrift store for $5 and i don't think many people know what they are or how to use them

mine was brand new and still in the shipping box.

I believe someone on medicare was given a script and never given instructions on how to use it so they never did. a couple weeks later i got a box of over 50 pad pairs still sealed.

I have Fibromyalgia so mine gets used

[agapoulo]

I experimented a bit, and while so far unable to actually trigger urination, I found that after a 30 minute TENS session, it's much easier to have accidents. This is possibly due to muscle fatigue, or mild anesthesia that is actually one the TENS's intended therapeutic effects. This effect seems to last less than an hour.

This is with one electrode over the perineum, and the other either over the sacrum (trying to work on the pudendal nerve), or above the pubis. While still early to ascertain best placement, for the perineum I tried to place the electrode closest to the levator ani (close to the prostate).

Definitely more work required, but it's promising so far...

[Eir]

I am neither a Cardinal, nor a Doctor. I have tensed the perinium for my paruresis training, but I am not sure how to locate it with a TENS unit. Would you be so kind as to provide a diagram?

I just bought a TENS unit from Amazon, they have an amazing price right now. I bought a unit that normally sells for $699 for $79%. In other words, I got it for 89% off! I bought this one: LGMedSupply SMART TENZ, TENS Unit