Supreme Court Supports Hate Speech

[rusty pins]

Funny how so many of these radical church groups insist that they are right, everyone else is wrong, etc. Funny how a church group like this claims to know exactly what God likes and dislikes, etc. True, you can read the bible but there are so many different interpretation of the scriptures. You don't believe me? Look at all the different religions and how they interpret things. All I can say is many of these people will find out the truth on judjement day. Then it will be too late for them to correct their actions towards others "in the name of God". Maybe they will have a lot of time for reflection as they are burning in the afterlife!

[Bettypooh]

look at them like hte trolls here... if you ignore them they will eventually go away... first they will get a lot louder and a lot more obnoxious.... then they will realize no one is watching and give up...

by it going to the supreme court, by it getting all that publicity, they get exactly what they want....

Sadly, with these jerks this is not true They have been picketing LGBT people (even in front of their homes) and LGBT events for at least a decade Ignoring idiots happens to be something most of the people in the Trans category excel at but they still come, screaming with anger and hate in their hearts and words They often express their wishes that Transpeople and Gays should die, which I'm sure has contributed to some suicides in our little world This is coming from a Church which is still allowed to be a Church, complete with tax exemptions and extra protections of their speech, which allows them to continue unabated What do you think would happen if a group of neo-nazis found a religious passage backing up their evil beliefs and wanted to start a Church? You'd have the whole world screaming in protest about that, but when the target of a Church's hate is smaller and not universally loved, society sees things diferently This is but one of many reasons I see that has lead to my belief that no Church deserves to be treated in any manner which privileges them to do or say anything that every other person cannot say or do It seems that England is beginning to pursue that course and I believe that it needs to happen here in the US as well because the bottom line is that what is permissible for one must be permissible for all, and what is not permitted of one cannot be permitted of any without exception. So what do we, as a world, wish to permit?

Bettypooh

[AutieAB]

Sadly, with these jerks this is not true They have been picketing LGBT people (even in front of their homes) and LGBT events for at least a decade Ignoring idiots happens to be something most of the people in the Trans category excel at but they still come, screaming with anger and hate in their hearts and words They often express their wishes that Transpeople and Gays should die, which I'm sure has contributed to some suicides in our little world

They are trolls but they believe they're getting attention from two sources, which is why the targets of their protests ignoring them doesn't work. Fred Phelps is so deluded and his family so brainwashed that they actually think a 'god' supports what they're doing. You can be sure that Phelps stands up in front of his clan every Sunday and attributes every single nice thing that ever happens to any of them to 'God thanking us for our work', etc and so the delusion is reinforced. If that sounds a lot like how a cult works, then................

It seems that England is beginning to pursue that course and I believe that it needs to happen here in the US as well because the bottom line is that what is permissible for one must be permissible for all, and what is not permitted of one cannot be permitted of any without exception. So what do we, as a world, wish to permit?

Some of WBC's members (including Fred Phelps) announced their intent to travel to the UK to picket the performance of a play about the murder of a gay man a couple of years ago. Assuming they're US Citizens, they wouldn't normally need a visa to enter but the Home Secretary (who the buck for immigration matters ultimately stops with) made it crystal clear to them that should they board a plane to the UK, they would not be permitted to enter. As far as I know, they never tried to travel and only one solitary protester turned up who was quickly shouted down by a lot more counter-protesters They spouted about the UK infringing on their freedom of speech and angering (their) god, of course, but they forgot that British freedom of speech protections apply to people inside the country, not outside and that they're not under any obligation to let people in if they don't want to

[babyfett]

called first amendment, could evreyone under 25 learn to read the U.S. constitution if you're going to live here.

I hate the jonesboro people however I hate the politically correct left wingers even more, so I actually support the supreme court ehre. Freedom goes both directions.

Its not only the far left that is full of hate.

[curiositykilledthecat]

I can bitch and whine about how many clueless liberals think they're right and everyone else is wrong as well as how many clueless 'religous' zealots I know who think they're right and everyone else is wrong. Idiots come in all shapes, sizes, faiths and orientations. The far left and the far right are both diseases and should be treated as such. As for the idiots in Kansas, they are not even Christian, they are not even Baptists. they have been denounced by all Baptist organizations(verified via some group called Baptist watch) and are considered a cult. Personally I would like to find one of their protests and crash it along with crashing a peta rally with a hamburger. I am tired of hearing all these special interest groups whine all the time.

Whether it's some crazy cult or some left wing special interest group both sides like to shove their opinion down your throat and if you don't agree with whatever they're spouting off about you're either going to hell or are a bigot. The only way to survive is to live on your own convictions and to have those convictions be ones you can back up.

[gbw_dl]

As people of "God" (so they claim) why do they think it is their right as a church group to judge people and tell them that "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!!". dont they realize when they do that, they are taking God's job to judge??? IDIOTS!!!

I live in wichita, and when a Soldier who died to defend freedom and has a funeral in wichita, those assholes always show up.and yes i have driven by and seen them protesting. it makes my skin crawl. BUT..... as i dont support what they are doing.... I DO SUPPORT FREE SPEECH. look, if they told this group that they couldnt hold their own assemblies, and protests, then where do you draw the line elsewhere? just because people disagree with what they are doing doesnt mean they should have their free speech taken away. Then the government could silence anyone that oppose them later all because they successfully silenced a hate group. I dont agree with the KKK or the Black Panthers, but they do have the right to Protest and assemble and the right to free speech. as much as both of those groups sicken me, we also wouldnt be America, if we didnt have free speech. The fact that it was 8-1 vote disturbs me, it should have been a 9-0 vote, that means that somebody in the supreme court disagrees with free speech! Listen, as much as Fred Phelps and his disgusting group crawl under my skin and i really really really really disagree with them, it is their right to do what they are doing. I hope this doesnt piss anyone off. just my .05 cents...? lol (i spent more than .02 cents on this... LOL)

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Like "hate crime", "hate speech" puts the emphasis on feeling rather than fact. This opens the door to determining crime not by objective, fixed, knowable standards, but by the imputed feelings of the perp, this means by the feelings of the judge, jury, prosecutor or whoever.

All crime can be hate crime. I robbed the bank because I hate to be poor. etc. It can also be legitimized that a black guy killed 5 whate gues but his hate was justified. If you doubt that, Look at the failure of the Justice Dept to prosecute the New Black Panthers and look at the film of their actions.

Feelings, like thoughs are internal and not directly accessible, therefore inplied or inferred. It follows then that "hate crime" is one step removed from "thought crime". Then comes the "Hate Police". and do you know what comes after that?

The whole thing then degenerates into psychobabble and we find ourselves looking at the Star Chamber: 2054 AD

It is exactly this kind of thing that the Founders wished to avoid. To do this they set the bandwidth of the permitted as wide without including factual or provable untruths, as they could, having had experience with the Star Chamber

Then too, things have changed, At one time, you had the right to say pretty much whatever you wanted about me, my wife or my family and I had the right to haul off and beat you til you said "uncle" and that is where it ended. Now if Joe called Jack's wife a whore and Jack goave Joe what he so richly deserved, Joe would sue Jack. 50 years ago, if that happened, the judge would ascertain if Joe called Jack's wife a whore, and upon finding that is was so would throw the case out and Joe into the clink for 3 months for taking up the court's time with a frivolous lawsuit. That may have been better as it made one inclined to watch one's mouth and saved a ton of money

[timmyc]

These guys are jackasses no doubt, but if the high court had ruled against them, people would be whining about losing rights and liberties. They have allowed the KKK to march in the past, so I am happy they are consistent. I think Fred Phelps will have his own judgment day, later on.

[timmyc]

Personally, I think if you take a protest into a cemetery, or otherwise protest a funeral, you should be shot in the head. Introduce the assholes to the 2nd amendment.

The right to bear arms, is not the right to commit murder.

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

If the funerals were held on private property, I think they could be kept out

My decision would be "You have the right to picket and they have the right to beat the bleep out of you as long as theuy do not break more than 3 bones -- and no Dran-O enemas!"

Unfortunately, beating up is a lost art

[LuvsGurl]

To be recognized and organized as a "Church" the leader must be ordained by a recognized religious body.

I know many religious sects that don't support gay rights, but I can't say that I know of any that would support what this man and his family are doing. It's not "Christian" by any sense of the word.

So my question is this. Why hasn't he been disordained/defrocked/removed by whatever Church governing body ordained him in the first place?

If the Church's mission is to "save" people and win converts they have to know that this guy surely isn't helping them... and by claiming a religious title he makes all Christians look bad by association.

[redneck diaper boy]

The fact that anyone wants to inhibit free speech is a scary thought! The Supreme Court was right. Too many people fought and died for my first amendment rights.

Is there a definition of "hate speech" ? I hate President Obama with a passion and I feel like I should have a right to express that with impunity. In reality what we have is an affirmative action experiement gone wrong.

It is typical of liberals. They want to censor speech that offends them.

This wacked out church would stop doing what they are doing if people would ignore them. When they see that they a pissing people off, they keep it up.

[AutieAB]

So my question is this. Why hasn't he been disordained/defrocked/removed by whatever Church governing body ordained him in the first place?

According to this, it was the Southern Baptists who ordained him. I'm sure if it were revoked, it wouldn't phase him in the slightest - I'm sure he'd just go somewhere like this and rectify it with the click of a mouse.

I was reading this earlier about how WBC carefully stage manage everything they do to protect the tax-exempt status as a 'church'.

[Luci Vaughn]

On the one hand, go free speech.

On the other hand, fuck the WBC with a razor-wire strap-on that's been doused in gasoline and liberally coated in rock salt.

On the other other hand...seriously, I really really really hate the WBC. I don't know who their god is, but he/she/it needs to be ripped apart and fed to the ravens.

~Luci

[redneck diaper boy]

The hate depicted here is rightfully justified.

It wasn't Christians or Jews that ran an airplane into the WTC. You don't hear the Muslim community condemming the attacks on American citizens.

So many people were afraid of "hate speech" A Muslim radical was allowed to murder military personell in Ft. Hood TX!

We are in a war against radical Islam. I say we help the Islamic radicals meet their 72 virgins. It is too bad that the local security detail did not blow this Muslim idiots head off at Ft Hood. Now we will have to hang his sorry ass from a wheel chair!

There is a proper time and place for everything. Sometimes we have to put a sick dog down. This Fort Hood shooter should not be breathing our air!

There is freedom of religion in America. We can't stop these radicals from planning their evil intentions. Once they cross the line and kill someone, they should be sent to Guantanamo Bay tried and executed.

Its not only the far left that is full of hate.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

[Luci Vaughn]

see above

And, apart from a loose tie in with religion before babbling like a person injected with talking points, I have no idea what the point what you said was.

On another note, this thread probably needs to be put down before it mutates into something pointless and drawn out.

[spark]

As much as I hate what Fred Phelps and his clan stand for, and especially hate how they go about their message (which is moronic in every way), people have a right to free speech and be complete idiots, and it is protected by the constitution. It is one of things that makes America a great place to live and something Americans hold dear.

Now that doesn't mean we need to give this guy a forum. I love the idea of the Angels holding up large curtains to protect the dignity of funerals, and making Fred Phelps and his family a non-issue. I also heard that one man had sued the WBC for the pain and suffering (I don't know if he won, but I hope he did- that would be one way to get this man to shut up).

And please don't equate anything the WBC does with Christianity. Fred Phelps has about as much to do with religion and the Weekly World News has to do with fine journalism. His 'Church' is a family cult, and nothing more. He has no real followers and certainly doesn't deserve as much attention as he gets.

[Bettypooh]

....please don't equate anything the WBC does with Christianity....

Therein lies the core of many problems in America today If the Christians don't want to be identified with Phelps, it is up to them to clean their own house to get rid of him and his kind since the citizenry legally can't This same principle goes for bad cops, bad politicians, bad doctors etal. When you will not police your own kind and throw your own trash out, you deserve to be identified with the stinking trash you're willfully keeping It's that simple. If the Christians will not stop WBC, then they will find themselves thrown out with them when the citizenry finally gets tired of living with the stink Not keeping your religion in order will be it's own death knell. See what's happening with the Catholic Church and the recent scandals of abuse? The world is now beginning to act against them- not because of the actions of the few who erred, but because they didn't take care of the known situation themselves like they should have If the Christians of America care about themselves, they will go to Westboro enmasse and do some legal protesting of their own until WBC breaks apart or is reformed into what it should be. If the don't, they deserve to get what's coming for them too

Bettypooh

[Bettypooh]

The right to bear arms, is not the right to commit murder.

Even if I have "The right to bear arms", I think I'd like to keep my human arms instead, even with their arthritic elbows Bear arms are far too hairy for me

Bettypooh

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

Even the title of this thread is a leftist talking point "hate speech" is one of those politically correct anti-concepts designed to cast the matter in terms of feelings rather than facts and render usless logic and therefore the mind. and is an intellectaul package deal that treats an inference as a fact and rests on the Fallacy of the Substitution of the Part for the Whole; the options are these. permitting "hate speech" without support and actually supporting it. The title foists on the SCOTUS actual support of this.

[BabyChris121675]

The Westboro Baptist Church is something I despise whole-heartedly as I have friends serving in the US Military and a deep distaste with what they do. I got chills when I heard the church's representatives on TV. SHUDDER. I have always thought Fred Phelps was a bit on the off-side if you will. Besides, his 'church' is mostly just him and his extended family.

BabyChris121675

[Little BabyDoll Christine]

And who is he hoping to make friends with. Conservatives and the Right in general HONOR the Service. Why run down the whole system just because you disagree with one of their many policies Most of the Right correctly label this frootloop as being several dozen donuts short of a dozen. Even the KKK told him to wear a BLACK sheet and hood. He makes the John Birch Society look like they have all four wheels firmly on the ground

[DiaperBoyKR]

Therein lies the core of many problems in America today If the Christians don't want to be identified with Phelps, it is up to them to clean their own house to get rid of him and his kind since the citizenry legally can't This same principle goes for bad cops, bad politicians, bad doctors etal. When you will not police your own kind and throw your own trash out, you deserve to be identified with the stinking trash you're willfully keeping It's that simple. If the Christians will not stop WBC, then they will find themselves thrown out with them when the citizenry finally gets tired of living with the stink Not keeping your religion in order will be it's own death knell. See what's happening with the Catholic Church and the recent scandals of abuse? The world is now beginning to act against them- not because of the actions of the few who erred, but because they didn't take care of the known situation themselves like they should have If the Christians of America care about themselves, they will go to Westboro enmasse and do some legal protesting of their own until WBC breaks apart or is reformed into what it should be. If the don't, they deserve to get what's coming for them too

Bettypooh

The problem though, Betty, is that there is really not a whole lot that any Christian body within the United States can do to shut up WBC, anymore than the government itself can. This is true for a couple of reasons. First, they are a "Baptist church", and as far as I can tell, they are not affliated with any of the major conventions (even though Mr. Phelps was ordained by the SBC). One of the major identifiers of Baptist churches (especially independent ones) is autonomy of the local church. In many cases there is literally no other earthly authority over the church. Other Baptist organizations and churches can (and do) denounce abominations like the WBC, but there's not a church hierarchy that can excommunicate them, strip them of their title, etc. etc. etc. And obviously, other denomination of Christianity have even less authority than that over them.

Individual Christians and churches can and have made attempts at counter-protests, but there have also been several cases where opposing churches and individuals have been sued (successfully) by WBC. Also, let me ask....which would you rather have at your son/daughter's funeral? One group of protestors, however vile, or two opposed groups essentially going to war with each other?

For whatever reason, the WBC has the ability to get all over the country, sometime with little to no notice of the rest of the world, to a variety of different events, to spread their hate. Even if we had local church "response teams" stationed all over the country, the odds of being able to effective and consistently counterprotest is essentially non-existent.

[DiaperBoyKR]

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to seperate my thoughts.

I agree with the Supreme Court's ruling. Not because I believe the WBC's message is anything but a vile, disgusting, deliberate, inaccurate, and heretical prooftexting of the Word of God, but because of the slippery slope that refusing to allow it would set our country's foot upon. All of constitutional law is based on clearly defined tests, but how do you define hate, or any other emotion for that matter? Are we going to define it as something offensive? Well lets look at how offensive has changed in the last 50 years, and how political correctness has turned anything we say publically into a potential landmine. Remember, whether or not something is offensive/harrassing (legally) has nothing to do with the intent of the speaker but the interpretation of the listener. Its not a far stretch to say that if we outlaw "hate speech" today, that it would not become a substantial limit on speech in the future. Hate speech laws can and would have a direct "chilling effect" on political speech for fear that someone somewhere would take it as hate speech. And that, according to Justice William Brennan in Lamont v. Postmaster General is a direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

[Bettypooh]

The problem though, Betty, is that there is really not a whole lot that any Christian body within the United States can do to shut up WBC, anymore than the government itself can.

Wrong- absolutely wrong. They can be protested against. The SBC can defrock Phelps as all the others state that they will not have him or any other WBC member in their sects. The various sects can create a press release and campaign to show their own disdain for WBC and show that they believe differently. These are just things shallow on the short list of possibilities. All of this is relatively easy to do- yet nobody has acted and they likely will not act I know why this is and I think you do too if you are looking deeply enough.

Individual Christians and churches can and have made attempts at counter-protests, but there have also been several cases where opposing churches and individuals have been sued (successfully) by WBC. Also, let me ask....which would you rather have at your son/daughter's funeral? One group of protestors, however vile, or two opposed groups essentially going to war with each other?

The ideal would be no protesters, but since that isn't going to happen I'd rather have tens of thousands supporting the fight against the dozens of WBC Those who have protested already lacked the support of their various Churches or their efforts would be sustained and current and growing And those who were not smart enough to avoid breaking the law themselves show that they are not capable of making good decisions for whatever reason, thus countering themselves from the start rendering their efforts inefective. I refuse to believe that here in America there is not some very good Lawyer who would find a legal way to stop WBC with enough people behind him giving their moral and monetary support. Put your money where your mouth is or be quiet about the results

For whatever reason, the WBC has the ability to get all over the country, sometime with little to no notice of the rest of the world, to a variety of different events, to spread their hate. Even if we had local church "response teams" stationed all over the country, the odds of being able to effective and consistently counterprotest is essentially non-existent.

It is obvious that you don't know enough about the methods of the WBC to qualify your statement. Almost always they announce, in one way or another, their plans or possible plans to protest- just like they did in the case cited by the OP where it was known several days ahead of time that they were coming. Almost never do they show up somewhere unexpectedly- it's their use of scare tactics that multiply their results against the timid. If nothing else, most places require a permit for organized protests to be asked for at least ten days prior- and this is on public record for all who are looking to see. There is always enough time for communities to organize for this if those communities stand at the ready, which they generally don't. Religion in general has been overcome by complacency and a lack of moral fortitude as a whole- thus my belief that they are the ones killing themselves, not anyone else As I see those lines of thought keep getting verified on an almost daily basis, the future of religion becomes clear. You will get what you're asking for even if you don't understand what you're asking, or that you are really asking for it.

The WBC showed up for a Pride event in a nearby town some years ago. At that time they were something of an unknown quantity, but they showed their colors well when the protests began. The LGBT community didn't like what they saw, and being decently organized they came up with a plan should WBC show up again. They made their plans known publicly and made sure that message got to WBC. Seeing that they couldn't win in that town WBC has never tried to protest there again They file for a permit every year and within minutes the LGBT community learns of it and begins readying it's counterplans, again publicly and openly, and every year WBC is a no-show A few years ago 3 of them, who were all that showed up, went back into their hotel when they saw the dozens of counter-protesters in front of them with dozens more racing to join in. Similar things have happened in other towns not so near, and in those WBC has actually shown up (or shown up again); but when they see the strength of their LGBT opposition their plans are cut short- they make a cameo appearance to gratify themselves then get out of town as fast as they can before bad things happen to them Even as bad as WBC is, you have to admit that they have a greater willingness to do what it takes to publicly stand for their beliefs than the average Christian does And that's why they win. The situation is as I said- who will heed the handwriting on the wall?

Bettypooh